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Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

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Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#101
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether he wanted them delivered or not, the legal system should require proof on behalf of the server that the person being served was served correctly. Basic first class mail should never suffice.

It should but it doesn't obviously. Perhaps a video recording of delivery and asking for a signature should be required. Obviously some defendants could just start running away and refuse to sign, thus delaying the lawsuit forever. But also throwing the packet of paper in a mail with a stamp or dropping it on the front porch while yelling "you've been served" is also not quite cutting it. Something in the middle is n…

> It should but it doesn't obviously.

I think you've lost track of the conversation in this thread.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#103

It might be easier to state that you are selling your time and not the item, the item is a free gift you are giving to the person that you agree to meet with for your time. "Oh you like this printer? Well the printer is free, but if you want it, you have to pay me $40 for 1 second of my time." You meet, say hello. Collect $40. Give the free printer.

You might be surprised at how judges react to that sort of sophomoric cleverness. A better solution is to include a simple waiver form such as you've probably signed a thousand times saying "seller is not responsible for any damages blah blah blah". You can find generic versions of those online.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#104

Had this been me, at some point I'd have driven to the bar, and asked the biggest guys I could find if they'd take $500 to show up at the guy's house and scare the living crap out of him. Escalate accordingly. There aren't that many situations left in this country that call for intimidation / violence, but malicious litigation is one of them.

I'm not condoning violence in my observation here, but I know how the world works. And this reminds me that dude in NYC selling sunglasses that turned out to be a sham, and who was intimidating customers who complained: keep it up long enough, and I'll be surprised that your knee caps remain in like-new condition.

Thankfully, speaking from the point of view of maintaining the fabric of society, the real world isn't like TV and movies and the odds of pissing off a genuine bad ass are slim (anonymous Internet tough guys like myself don't count). But $30K is beginning to look like "real money", and for some folks under some circumstances, physical violence begins to look like a viable solution to the problem.

And truth be told, the less enlightened side of me says, "that dude needs a good ass kickin'."

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#105

The problem is a system where pieces of paper are sent by mail (often with addresses mis-spelled), and the supposed recipient is in trouble for not responding. There needs to be a better system.

There is, it's called registered mail. And there's a better solution than that, too- it's called a process server. All of them are vulnerable to corrupt middle-men, but the article doesn't really say what method was used to contact the defendant, so there's really nothing to speculate about.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#106
Does it help to have a generic boilerplate contract (jurisdiction-wise) signed by both buyer & seller for such transactions, where the buyer would sign that they have inspected the item to their knowledge and assume full responsibility of the purchase, and that they won't hold the seller responsible for blah blah. At the same time, the seller assumes that they have given up ownership of the said item for whatever money they've received in this transaction ?

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#107
post #76
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or judges? I would want to sue the judge that awarded $30,000 for an allegedly broken printer. Edit: Found this article from Sep. 2014. [0] "The [Indiana] state high court, in an order issued Tuesday, called Zavodnik 'a prolific, abusive litigant' and put him on notice. In the unanimous ruling, the five justices warned the Ukraine-born U.S. citizen that he 'can expect any further abusive litigation practices ... to b…

The problem is that it seems that the judge made the legally correct determination, and that the majority of judges understand that this type of suit is ridiculous, but they have no tools to stop it.

The majority of judges understand that this type of suit gives them incredible power relative to the average person, and work in a way that preserves their power.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#108

Under a sensible legal system, this is a crime. It's called "barratry": filing baseless lawsuits in order to harass or to extract a settlement. In most US jurisdictions, however, it's not legally recognized as a crime, and so it's widespread. From a defendant's point of view, however, it's basically equivalent to getting mugged.

The concept is far from obsolete, but the use of the word barratry implies a body of law that for the most has vanished from use.

In most sensible common law jurisdictions being a common barrator was a common law offence; most such jurisdictions have allowed common law offences to fall into disuse, and many have outright abolished effectively all of them in favour of codified criminal statutes.

There is statutory relief available against litigious harassment in most such jurisdictions, either directly in the criminal code, or in the statutes controlling the bodies that regulate the legal profession. Additionally, the codification of rules of practice in litigation also controls what litigants without professionally regulated representation may do without facing their case being struck out on application by the counterparty. There is also often statutory relief against baseless litigation (such as you might find in SLAPP).

The bar for a successful prosecution against egregious litigators is quite high because it is a non-strict-liability criminal offence; you have to prove intent as well as action. For single isolated cases that may have some surface merit, it is easier to get the trial court to strike out the case, or to arrive at an early judgement with costs consequences. If the prima facie vexatious party continues litigation courts are generally empowered to consider indemnity orders on costs (which turns on accelerated interest on all the costs payable by that party) and to require costs deposits (where the prima facie vexatious party must leave with the court the costs that will cover the litigation expenses of the other party on the grounds that an adverse costs order is probable), and finally courts are also generally empowered to make interim costs orders in especially bad cases, wherein the prima facie vexatious party must pay some of the other party's costs before final judgment (this is to avoid a rich vexatious litigator from forcing an adverse settlement upon a party that is likely to ultimately prevail).

Finally, there is usually a modern distinction drawn between a compulsive claimant (who is probably mentally ill) and a vexatious one (who usually targets one or a small group of defendants).

The law in England and Wales offer several means of dealing with both.

As one example, the Civil Rules of Procedure rule 3.1 and Practice Direction 3A allow a district court to impose a civil restraint order on litigants that tightly controls what they may do in the remainder of the current proceedings, or for a period of time in any district court, or generally in the courts of England and Wales. CROs require people served with them to apply in writing to a court before making various applications or claims, and if permission is not obtained, the application or claim is automatically dismissed (with costs consequences).

In issuing CROs courts will generally consider, among other things, the tendency of a subject to engage in frequent litigation, the manner in which litigation is undertaken, the subject's responsiveness to the courts and the other parties during the course of the litigation, whether litigation is being needlessly and wilfully prolonged, and the effect that the litigation has upon the defendant or defendants.

Alternatively, the Attorney-General (of England and Wales), a member of the government, may apply to a High Court for an order under the Senior Courts Act to declare a litigant vexatious. This applies in all courts -- not just district ones -- and may further require a claimant or applicant to seek permission from the Ministry of Justice as well as the Court. A list of people who have had such orders made against them is here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vexatious-litigants

Few of these people would have been convictable as barrators under the pre-1967 common law definition; and additionally a few of those on this list whose orders date back before 1967 likely would have been the subjects of district court CROs instead.

Most of them, on the other hand, suffer from intractable -- or worse, untreated -- mental illness. :-(

Finally, bringing a ridiculously large claim in England and Wales cannot be done in the district courts, and the High Courts will generally quickly reject -- with costs consequences -- claims that are on their face too large for the damages particularized in the statement of claim. In England and Wales, district courts are used for claims under £10 000. "Go back to a district court and get on the small claims track as you cannot prove the money value in your claim of £millions" is a very expensive order to receive from a High Court, and that is almost certainly what the claimant in the case in the article would have to overcome.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#109

Had this been me, at some point I'd have driven to the bar, and asked the biggest guys I could find if they'd take $500 to show up at the guy's house and scare the living crap out of him. Escalate accordingly. There aren't that many situations left in this country that call for intimidation / violence, but malicious litigation is one of them.

I've actually done similar things to that, many times. I come from "salt of the Earth" folks like you describe.

I'm a programmer and all around nice guy, I hold doors for folks. I'll walk out of my way to go open the door for you if your hands are full everytime. And just last night a drunk driver ran into a parked car outside, it wasn't one of mine but I went out and took photos of everything for whoevers car it was (including of the perps license plate that fell on the ground). I gave a statement to the police about it today. I always take time out of my day to help a random person. The poor girl whose car it was hugged and hugged me, she said "people don't do that". I just shrugged. I grew up working on a farm, fairly Earth-salty midwest guy. I'm not a self proclaimed tough guy, I'm actually pretty soft but probably hard by today's standards. My brother is far more rough and tumble than I am.

I do have a lot of stories, but I've done just what you describe. I had a TV stolen when I was in college, I generally knew who did it. I got my band of merry men together, knocked on the door and when they let us in, we blasted in turning it upside down searching the apartment for the TV. One of the occupants pulled a gun out on us, we took it from his hands and beat him to the ground with it. Then we tossed it outside into the snow and continued to pound on the guys.

The TV didn't end up being there, but they knew who took it. They were at their house the night it disappeared. They called who stole it and allegedly said, "I think these guys mean business". That was correct. We were going to hunt them down like animals at their next bonfire/party they had planned and it was going to be very bad for them. And we weren't going to stop there.

Needless to say, I had a brand new TV in the box on my doorstep at 9:30PM that night! Problem solved and I shook on it with one of the guys who stole it. They were drunk and broke in to steal it, I just wanted my TV back.

I've protected many men who have done me harm, financially and physically from being harmed by calling off my goons who wanted to come after people in different situations. They simply hadn't earned what was coming their way so I prevented it.

All that said, this guy if he had done this little racket to my family he would be in very serious trouble. I normally do absolutely zero questionable behavior, I'm absolutely by the book day to day. At work, I'm a non-toxic angel who would never step on anyones toes. I keep my head down, work a hard, honest 8 hours and mind my own business. I'm not even a condescending smartass or funny-guy little punk like most people try to be. I'm live and let live.

But I would haunt this man for the rest of his days. Likely me, my brother and many others who are big, strong midwest giants who are not nice. I've been screwed over in life in many situations, I do not retaliate like this ever or normally.

But stuff like this story is beyond the pale. You're right, people like this need to be handled correctly. This eastern European is one of the people who are not to be dealt with in court. He'd realize we do not live in "new age" where you can say and do what you want to. Something can happen to you. Worse than any stupid Anonymous online hack or geek vengeance. He's laughing at us here in the USA, but I assure you it's not safe for people like him.

This Ukrainian guy simply got very lucky with picking the right victims. If my brother called me in on a situation like this, this Euro trash would be haunted physically, mentally, and materially for the rest of his life.

The immigrant plays with fire that he doesn't fully understand. We do not live in a New Age, where you are safe. Things can happen to you.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#110

It might be easier to state that you are selling your time and not the item, the item is a free gift you are giving to the person that you agree to meet with for your time. "Oh you like this printer? Well the printer is free, but if you want it, you have to pay me $40 for 1 second of my time." You meet, say hello. Collect $40. Give the free printer.

I like this idea and tried to upvote, but could not.
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