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Source code for 4kb demoscene production “Elevated” released

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Re: Source code for 4kb demoscene production “Elevated” released

#11

Post by nickpsecurity »

Kristine1975 wrote: post #5
nickpsecurity wrote: post #3

That's unreal. On what kind of graphics hardware, though? Seems like it probably offloads most of the work on GPU whereas we'd have had to do most of it in software on HW weak enough that 4KB size actually mattered. And probably not achieve this demo.

>Seems like it probably offloads most of the work on GPU It does just about everything on the GPU. All the CPU does is repeatedly render two triangles and play music: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8070879 Here it has been adapted to WebGL: https://www.shadertoy.com/view/MdX3Rr Edit: I'm wrong about the two triangles. From the .nfo-file: for those wondering, this a (too) low density flat mesh displaced with a p…

Thanks for detailed response. I figured it mostly did GPU stuff. So, real computing necessary here is a massively-parallel chip with generic and custom hardware with a bunch of memory plus a regular core using 4KB on other end. I think a more interesting challenge would be to force use of a subset of GPU functions or memory plus tiny memory on CPU side. I don't follow demoscene close enough to know if they subset GPU's like that. Idea being making them run closer to the old Voodoo or pre-GeForce GPU's to see just how much 2D or 3D performance once could squeeze out of it.

Tricks could have long-term benefit given any emerging FOSS GPU is more likely to be like one of the older ones given complexity of new ones. I'd clone one like SGI's Octane ones they used to do movies on with mere 200MHz processors. Meanwhile, similar tricks might let one squeeze more out of the existing, embedded GPU's in use. Maybe subset a PC GPU in demoscenes like one of the smartphone GPU's. Yeah, that's got some interesting potential.

Re: Source code for 4kb demoscene production “Elevated” released

#12

Post by nickpsecurity »

pjc50 wrote: post #6
nickpsecurity wrote: post #3

That's unreal. On what kind of graphics hardware, though? Seems like it probably offloads most of the work on GPU whereas we'd have had to do most of it in software on HW weak enough that 4KB size actually mattered. And probably not achieve this demo.

The C64 subset of the demoscene is still going if you want it.

That's a real challenge. :) My comment to Kristine has some other details on how we might do something between that and a full GPU.

Re: Source code for 4kb demoscene production “Elevated” released

#14

Post by lowtolerance »

jsheard wrote: post #9
lowtolerance wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a presentation put together by one of the guys behind this release that explains a lot of about how it was made.

I assume you meant to link this: http://iquilezles.org/www/material/function2009/function2009...

Yes, thanks. I'm not sure where my head is today.

Re: Source code for 4kb demoscene production “Elevated” released

#15

Post by Kristine1975 »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #11
Kristine1975 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Seems like it probably offloads most of the work on GPU It does just about everything on the GPU. All the CPU does is repeatedly render two triangles and play music: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8070879 Here it has been adapted to WebGL: https://www.shadertoy.com/view/MdX3Rr Edit: I'm wrong about the two triangles. From the .nfo-file: for those wondering, this a (too) low density flat mesh displaced with a p…

Thanks for detailed response. I figured it mostly did GPU stuff. So, real computing necessary here is a massively-parallel chip with generic and custom hardware with a bunch of memory plus a regular core using 4KB on other end. I think a more interesting challenge would be to force use of a subset of GPU functions or memory plus tiny memory on CPU side. I don't follow demoscene close enough to know if they subset GPU…

>plus a regular core using 4KB on other end.

The .exe is 4K (it has been compressed using Crinkler), not the application's RAM requirements. The game .kkrieger for example is a 96K .exe, but uses several hundred MB of RAM when run.

Also, the strict size requirements can interfere with execution speed. From the .nfo again:

   believe it or not, this was running at 30 fps in a gefoce 7900 at some
   point, but size optimizations forced us to ask you for a pretty decent
   graphics card, like a geforce 8800gtx or hd4850. please, make sure you
   have d3d9_33.dll somewhere there. also, you only need windows xp.

Re: Source code for 4kb demoscene production “Elevated” released

#16

Post by arcticfox »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #10
adamnemecek wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 4kb restriction isn't there to make it run on weak hw, it's there to push people.

I figured that. It's just that almost everythings done on the GPU for a rendering demo. That's really pushing people. ;)

The wink face makes it seem like you think this is easy because using a GPU to execute the program is allowed. No?

Edit: just read your other comment about real challenges in the C64 subset of the demoscene. That's like "You set a record in a 1600m race? For a real challenge, set a record in a marathon." It's just arbitrarily moving the totally legitimate goalposts to a different challenge because you prefer it.

Re: Source code for 4kb demoscene production “Elevated” released

#18

Post by nickpsecurity »

Kristine1975 wrote: post #15
nickpsecurity wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for detailed response. I figured it mostly did GPU stuff. So, real computing necessary here is a massively-parallel chip with generic and custom hardware with a bunch of memory plus a regular core using 4KB on other end. I think a more interesting challenge would be to force use of a subset of GPU functions or memory plus tiny memory on CPU side. I don't follow demoscene close enough to know if they subset GPU…

>plus a regular core using 4KB on other end. The .exe is 4K (it has been compressed using Crinkler), not the application's RAM requirements. The game .kkrieger for example is a 96K .exe, but uses several hundred MB of RAM when run. Also, the strict size requirements can interfere with execution speed. From the .nfo again: believe it or not, this was running at 30 fps in a gefoce 7900 at some point, but size optimizat…

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I wonder what this one's runtime in RAM is. Regarding GPU quote, that's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. It's sort of a cheat where a massive amount of resources are used in one place to reduce a tiny amount in another. An impressive optimization requires little to no extra resources in B when optimizing A. There's some types that straight-up can't seem to have that tradeoff. Yet, the more constrained demo scenes were forced to figure out a bunch of them that worked.

So, I think there's potential for GPU subsets or CPU/GPU tradeoffs to make for interesting opportunities for people to show off brilliance.

Re: Source code for 4kb demoscene production “Elevated” released

#19

Post by nickpsecurity »

arcticfox wrote: post #16
nickpsecurity wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I figured that. It's just that almost everythings done on the GPU for a rendering demo. That's really pushing people. ;)

The wink face makes it seem like you think this is easy because using a GPU to execute the program is allowed. No? Edit: just read your other comment about real challenges in the C64 subset of the demoscene. That's like "You set a record in a 1600m race? For a real challenge, set a record in a marathon." It's just arbitrarily moving the totally legitimate goalposts to a different challenge because you prefer it.

How much harder would it be if software rendered or on a simple GPU from the late 90's? Their executable still 4KB? No?
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