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Vvvv – a live-programming environment for easy prototyping and development

vvvv.org

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Re: Vvvv – a live-programming environment for easy prototyping and development

#14

Post by almost »

catnaroek wrote: post #8
almost wrote: post #6

I've worked with a few people who use vvvv and written (is that the right verb when it's graphical language) a bunch of of vvvv nodes to integrate with other stuff I was writing for them. It's a a powerful system and seems to really fit the minds of some very talented and creative people. As seems to be common with graphical programming things abstraction can be a little hard unless it fits into the node-with-fixed-i…

> As seems to be common with graphical programming things abstraction can be a little hard unless it fits into the node-with-fixed-inputs-and-outputs mold In other words, you're trapped in a first-order box: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5157#comment-85605

Yes, that's about it. Sometimes that really matters and sometimes it doesn't matter at all. It seems like a lot of the time for the sort of things people do in vvvv it's not so important. I certainly found it a limitation but it's hard to know how much that's an actual need and how much it's just me thinking in the languages I'm used to.

Re: Vvvv – a live-programming environment for easy prototyping and development

#15

Post by almost »

vonklaus wrote: post #9

I really wanted something like scratch for api design. I can't load vvvv right niw for some reason, but i was hoping/looking for something like a cross between scratch & balsamiq to design programs. For example a crud app, you could visually design the routing, db structure auth flow ect. is vvvv like this?

vvvv is probably not what you're looking for. It's pretty painful (but still possible) to do standard crud things. That's understandable because that's really not what it's for.

Re: Vvvv – a live-programming environment for easy prototyping and development

#16

Post by CyberDildonics »

Pinkertron wrote: post #4

Another powerful program along the same lines is touch designer https://www.derivative.ca It's an offshoot of Houdini. It is exceptional at working with external hardware controllers and networking.

Really have to give it to touch designer, it is a fantastic piece of software that seems underrated with the current state of input devices and graphics power.

Re: Vvvv – a live-programming environment for easy prototyping and development

#19

Post by catnaroek »

almost wrote: post #14
catnaroek wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As seems to be common with graphical programming things abstraction can be a little hard unless it fits into the node-with-fixed-inputs-and-outputs mold In other words, you're trapped in a first-order box: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5157#comment-85605

Yes, that's about it. Sometimes that really matters and sometimes it doesn't matter at all. It seems like a lot of the time for the sort of things people do in vvvv it's not so important. I certainly found it a limitation but it's hard to know how much that's an actual need and how much it's just me thinking in the languages I'm used to.

> It seems like a lot of the time for the sort of things people do in vvvv it's not so important.

It's not so important until it turns out it is. Say, because the project, while initially small, has grown to a size that demands using abstraction. Or because, while the original programmer unwittingly reimplemented the same patterns over and over, the next programmer is less willing to put up with so much duplication.

Every attempt to lower the craft of programming to the level of those who aren't willing to learn it has resulted has resulted in:

(0) An eventual admission that this approach doesn't work, e.g., how JavaScript was originally supposed to be easy for non-programmers to learn, but eventually grew programming patterns and practices that require programming knowledge to understand and put into practice, while keeping the gotchas and rough edges that were supposed not to matter.

(1) Half-assed attempts to retrofit means of abstraction into languages with too much bad legacy code, e.g., generics in Java or modules in JavaScript.

(2) Yet another attempt to lower the craft of programming, this time by someone else. Loop.

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