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Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

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Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#481

Post by replicatorblog »

sgnelson wrote: post #453
vidarh wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have done hour each way commutes for many years, and while I don't miss it, it's not nearly that much of a waste. It's not "sit around doing nothing" (though, I wish I had two hours a day to sit around doing nothing - it'd be fantastic). It's time people spend listening to music, reading, napping, catching up on e-mail, playing games. As much as I like currently not having a commute, it was certainly not time that…

You obviously didn't drive if you were reading, napping, catching up on email, playing games (at least I certainly hope not). At least within the US, a typical commute (with the exception of very large cities such as NYC, Washington DC, Boston, Chicago, which have large public transportation systems) involves spending time driving their own car, which essentially prohibits any activity other than listening to music,…

+1 for Podcasts and Audiobooks. I get through ~2 books a month and a host of podcasts. It's not an ideal use of time, but if scheduled correctly it can at least be additive.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#482

Post by saiya-jin »

eps wrote: post #215
technofiend wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland is notoriously tough to emigrate to unless you have a great deal of seed capital to start your own business.

... or if you have an EU citizenship, in which case you can just get there, get visa, settle and start searching for a job. In that order.

Incorrect order, sir. You can move there, live there on 3-month tourist visa, look for work in the meantime, and once somebody will hire you, you will receive proper work permit (visa). You can re-enter, but it's a damn expensive place to live and not earn.

Unless you are from 10 new EU countries, then getting work permit isn't automatic but you deal with limited queues per year, per canton. Once depleted (which goes fast), bye. And employer has to prove to officials that there is no one Swiss or with existing permit to do this job, which adds a lot of bureaucracy.

It gets deeper, far from easy simple situation. But it's true that EU citizens have certain advantages.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#484

Post by barrkel »

soyiuz wrote: post #447
bane wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very simple, even outside of equity earning and the ups and downs of the housing market, once you pay off your mortgage, you now have a place to live that's fairly close to free (other than maintenance, utilities and taxes). If your home is large enough, you can even turn it into a revenue generating asset by renting out portions or all of it. Rents also tend to go up with inflation, once you enter into a mortga…

See my post above. Once you pay off the mortgage it is equivalent to paying yourself out a percentage of cash investment. In NYC that number is approximately 4.5%. That is pretty good but not great considering the risks of ownership.

Home ownership via a mortgage is a leveraged investment. If you're renting, you usually don't have access to leverage for an investment like that. Further, when you're renting, you don't normally have much of an impetus to save extra and accrue interest; whereas a mortgage acts as a forced saving scheme. You must save (build up equity) or else the bank will foreclose on your property!

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#485

Post by grkvlt »

bane wrote: post #326
vidarh wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The maths rarely work out the way you outlined: If the mortgage is equal to the rent, then potential landlords are leaving money on the table. That rarely happens for long. Typically most landlords in competitive markets will leverage and take up interest-only mortgages to the extent were rent only barely covers interest and maintenance, and make most of their money on capital gains. For most people a repayment mortg…

The algorithm to make money as a landlord is pretty simple. 1) mortgage the property you wish to rent out 2) rent it out 3) wait until rents increase and earn profit (mortgages do not increase while rental rates do)

Not sure about point 3. Normally mortgage costs do increase - in line with interest rates. Even with a fixed-rate mortgage, there is usually a term for that rate, which is generally substantially less than the lifetime of the mortgage, often as little as two years, and rarely more than five. This is certainly the situation in the UK, do things work differently in the US?

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#486

Post by yummyfajitas »

aninhumer wrote: post #467
yummyfajitas wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that open borders will help hundreds of millions escape dire poverty, whereas basic income will (at best) reduce some administrative costs and allow some people to live a life of leisure, how do you justify this preference? Do the prospective brown people who might want to escape dire poverty (i.e., gain access to clean running water, flush toilets, and adequate food) just not count? Even if they counted only a…

It's possible that by providing a fraction of the population with greater luxury than an equal allocation of resources would allow for, those people are able to achieve greater advances in technology than otherwise, which lead to better results in the long run. Or more pithily: Maybe we need gardens to cultivate civilisation. That said, I am very aware that this is probably a post-rationalisation for my tribal intuit…

This is a plausible argument, and a favored one among some neoreactionaries. But those folks point out that if we accept the "garden" premise, many folks currently in the garden (non-Asian minorities, various lower class white people) should be ejected.

Do you have any argument against this? Coming up with arguments to keep out foreigners is easy. Coming up with arguments that don't also suggest kicking out blacks/hispanics/west virginia is tougher.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#487

Post by mahyarm »

enraged_camel wrote: post #97
akerro wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As already mentioned, you're ignoring a fact that even by working there for 10 years, it's close to impossible to buy a part of land and build a house anywhere near a city. Land and house prices are too high to stay there for live. It's only profitable to live there, make savings and buy 2-3 houses in Uk/Germany for it. Like two of my co-workers did.

I've never understood why people believe/feel that buying land and/or a house is the pinnacle of... something. Sure, it gives the person a feeling of control and stability. But rooting oneself in one labor market (vs. being mobile) decreases one's employment options and therefore their salary. It's also very risky, as it's the equivalent of putting one's eggs in one basket and leaves their financial wellbeing in the…

It's a financial calculation like everything else. Don't assume they do it for purely emotional reasons.

I chose to buy because:

1. It's significantly cheaper after tax deductions compared to renting in my area.

2. This is the highest paying area for the software labor market in the world, and I've looked compared to last 10 years. I don't really see anywhere else that would get better than the SF bay area.

3. It solidifies your housing costs. When prices are rising relatively rapidly, it can be a money saver, and over the long term, it's definitely a very large money saver because it locks your price in. That is a risky bet to make for sure.

You can end up with a housing bubble and being underwater for 5 years, or you could end up in somewhere like london or vancouver, where it goes up and stays up and by the time that 'bubble' pops, your 50 years old. But that is the same risk you take when you chose whatever profession you have as a career or by leaving your down payment savings in stock & bonds.

4. You have to compare against what your down payment would make in the stock market comparatively.

5. When you move away to better opportunities, you can just rent it, especially if rental prices have gone up a %5-%10+ since you bought and would cover the management fees. Maybe life will bring you back again, especially if you left from a pretty good market already.

6. If you save a lot of money, trading a fraction of your savings in down payment for a discounted housing cost for the rest of your life can be a good one time investment.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#488

Post by mahyarm »

s3nnyy wrote: post #37

Switzerland is the only country in the world that implements direct democracy. You can really feel the difference to the rest of Europe. Swiss more often than not stand behind decisions made by their government. When talking about their politicians, the Swiss say "WE decided that ..." whereas e.g., Germans say: "THEY decided that ..." If you look for a coding job in Europe, Zurich is a great place to live and is the…

Total after tax compensation is still better in the bay area although when you compare total compensation at companies like Google and Facebook. So if your in the USA already it's would be a minor downgrade and a huge move. Immigration timelines are also about similar with about 10+ years necessary to become a swiss citizen like in the USA.

It's definitely an easier move for an EU citizen to do than the USA although from a family and immigration standpoint. But immigration wise it isn't hard to get an H1B or L1 visa since the hiring company will handle all of it. From there applying for a green card is pretty automatic. For canadian's and australians, it's even easier to immigrate, almost the same amount of work as moving to switzerland for an EU citizen.

Indian and Chinese people have a hard time with green cards in the USA because there is per country lineups. The immigration 'lines' for those 2 countries are much longer than any other nationality because of their population sizes. Switzerland or somewhere else in the EU might be more attractive from that standpoint, although I don't know if they implemented something similar there.

Cost of living wise CH is definitely more expensive. Housing costs are also close in SF and CH.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#489

Post by lisivka »

PunchTornado wrote: post #468
nickik wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because hackers tend to believe in the idea that automation and advanced AI causes a reduction of jobs and the destruction of middle class. This leads to a lot of rich people who control the AI and robots and a lot of poor who can't find jobs. To counteract this, Basic income is a good idea because it allows for low risk job switching, furthering education and a small bureaucracy but extensive social safety net.

Some say UBI has no connection to technology. It is just about eliminating welfare administrative costs and making people contribute to their communities in other ways.

am pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli uendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, panem et circenses.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#490

Post by somethingsimple »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #345
ethanbond wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not wanting to buy a house seems pretty common for younger people, at least in my experience (in various parts of the US). I think young people realize that the suburban dream was just that.

Young people almost always change their mind about that once they have kids. This isn't a new phenomenon.

My wife and I are young parents (not 30 yet and our kid is going to be 8 soon) and don't have plans to buy a house, at least not in the next 10 or so years.

We like the mobility renting affords us. We can switch jobs and move closer to work. Plus, we can switch school districts if we want or feel the need to.

Also, we like not having the stress of being homeowners. A lot of people see renting as throwing money away. We see it as paying for a housing service where a lot of annoying stuff is taken care for us.

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