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Is your smartphone listening to you?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Is your smartphone listening to you?

#21

Post by drdaeman »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #12
jimhefferon wrote: post #4

If a vendor provided a physical switch with which I could turn off the mic, that would be a feature that I at least would consider very attractive.

That's in my proposal for a secure or private phone that I drop on people trying to build one. Hopefully it will get in a successful product at some point. Need one for mic, front camera, rear camera, and radios. Might compromise to have a physical switch for mic and radios with something inside phone (eg a jumper) to turn off others. I want to be sure I can cut actual power to mic and wireless, though.

If your threat model concerns with hardware/firmware exploits, then you can't trust the physical switches unless they cut all the wires - and unless you can validate that this is what they do. Theoretically speaking, a malicious (or threatened/persuaded/forced) manufacturer may implement a non-standard way to power the supposedly disconnected component using still-connected wiring, to be used for a special occasions.

/tinfoil

Re: Is your smartphone listening to you?

#22

Post by stephengillie »

jimhefferon wrote: post #4

If a vendor provided a physical switch with which I could turn off the mic, that would be a feature that I at least would consider very attractive.

Common workarounds include disconnectable devices like USB microphones, or creating your own hardware shields like electrical tape over a laptop webcam.

Re: Is your smartphone listening to you?

#23

Post by stephengillie »

Houshalter wrote: post #16
smaisidoro wrote: post #14

I have to say, I'm very sceptical about all of this, but one day a friend showed me a product (some speakers that use the table surface for resonance) and the ad showed a couple of minutes after on Facebook. I started thinking on how devices can emit audio signatures for other devices around it to be aware of its presence. A couple of years after, Chromecast uses audio for authentication of nearby devices. I honestly…

One theory I have is that advertisers keep track of IP address. So if your friend searched for something on your internet, it would show ads to you. I know this happens because a few years ago there was a discussion about how advertisements were leaking christmas present purchases through something like that. But what's really creepy is the article claimed 24/7 speech recognition didn't drain battery too badly. And d…

Load balancers call this IP Persistence. It's one way of keeping users connected to the application server that has their session in memory. Except in this case, the session is ad info about the user.

Re: Is your smartphone listening to you?

#24

Post by huuu »

Houshalter wrote: post #16
smaisidoro wrote: post #14

I have to say, I'm very sceptical about all of this, but one day a friend showed me a product (some speakers that use the table surface for resonance) and the ad showed a couple of minutes after on Facebook. I started thinking on how devices can emit audio signatures for other devices around it to be aware of its presence. A couple of years after, Chromecast uses audio for authentication of nearby devices. I honestly…

One theory I have is that advertisers keep track of IP address. So if your friend searched for something on your internet, it would show ads to you. I know this happens because a few years ago there was a discussion about how advertisements were leaking christmas present purchases through something like that. But what's really creepy is the article claimed 24/7 speech recognition didn't drain battery too badly. And d…

I think this is the only model for Whatsapp. They know who is talking to who. They don't know what you are talking about but that doesn't matter when one or two persons in a group show some interest in a subject.

Re: Is your smartphone listening to you?

#25

Post by jfktrey »

stephengillie wrote: post #22
jimhefferon wrote: post #4

If a vendor provided a physical switch with which I could turn off the mic, that would be a feature that I at least would consider very attractive.

Common workarounds include disconnectable devices like USB microphones, or creating your own hardware shields like electrical tape over a laptop webcam.

This is more a plug for the EFF than it is for a product, but these camera stickers have served me well and helped strike up a healthy conversation about privacy - https://supporters.eff.org/shop/laptop-camera-cover-set

Re: Is your smartphone listening to you?

#26

Post by nickpsecurity »

drdaeman wrote: post #21
nickpsecurity wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's in my proposal for a secure or private phone that I drop on people trying to build one. Hopefully it will get in a successful product at some point. Need one for mic, front camera, rear camera, and radios. Might compromise to have a physical switch for mic and radios with something inside phone (eg a jumper) to turn off others. I want to be sure I can cut actual power to mic and wireless, though.

If your threat model concerns with hardware/firmware exploits, then you can't trust the physical switches unless they cut all the wires - and unless you can validate that this is what they do. Theoretically speaking, a malicious (or threatened/persuaded/forced) manufacturer may implement a non-standard way to power the supposedly disconnected component using still-connected wiring, to be used for a special occasions.…

You should see my full write-up:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10906999

I went into detail on what it takes on hardware side:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10468624

Re: Is your smartphone listening to you?

#27

Post by willholloway »

The only real answer to this with current consumer devices is to have a soundproof case for your phone. Radio connection can be kept alive, and if the case were smart it could have its own internal mic, wired to an led or speaker on the outside of the case to alert the user that the phone is ringing.

It's a product I've been kicking around producing for a while now. Is there demand? Would you purchase for peace of mind?

I have come to peace with ubiquitous and comprehensive data collection of everything I send unencrypted over the wire. In a way it fits with current 4th ammendment ideas concerning zero expectation of privacy.

But just like the Supreme Court I strongly draw the line at the walls and shade drawn windows of my home. I do not want internal surveillance of my personal conversations with friends or lovers in my own home, and every internet connected microphone you own, in your macbook, Fire TV remote or cell phone can be almost trivially turned into a bug by any actor with the right exploit.

We've already seen it done by IT at a school district [1], school staff attempted to use laptop webcam photos of students in their bedroom to discipline them for drug use.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School...

Re: Is your smartphone listening to you?

#28

Post by willholloway »

drdaeman wrote: post #21
nickpsecurity wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's in my proposal for a secure or private phone that I drop on people trying to build one. Hopefully it will get in a successful product at some point. Need one for mic, front camera, rear camera, and radios. Might compromise to have a physical switch for mic and radios with something inside phone (eg a jumper) to turn off others. I want to be sure I can cut actual power to mic and wireless, though.

If your threat model concerns with hardware/firmware exploits, then you can't trust the physical switches unless they cut all the wires - and unless you can validate that this is what they do. Theoretically speaking, a malicious (or threatened/persuaded/forced) manufacturer may implement a non-standard way to power the supposedly disconnected component using still-connected wiring, to be used for a special occasions.…

Agreed, which is why I believe sound proof cases are the only sensible approach, and work with all current consumer devices.

Re: Is your smartphone listening to you?

#29

Post by logicallee »

etatoby wrote: post #8
ck2 wrote: post #2

Doesn't this need a visible permission in an app or are there workarounds like using the google play api?

You only need to put in the app an obscure functionality that makes use of the mic, and then explain what it is in the app description, for the 1% of people who will even bother to ask why Super Candy Smash Tournament is asking for permission to use the mic.

If Google were serious about granular permissions in Android it would allow you to choose from three options: "allow", "block", "pretend to allow" for every requested permission, where the third would be described as "Your app will be given permission but will not have actual access unless you grant it." Then later you could have a pop-up "This app is requesting access to your camera. You have previously chosen to give it fake access. (a black image.) this app is requesting camara access: allow access/block/pretend to allow?"

likewise contacts, photos, whatever. There should be detailed places to put fake content to give apps, for example here are my fake contacts, here are my fake photos, here are wav files for my fake microphone feed. Some people have new phones and haven't sent SMS's yet, or have no contacts - how would an app know if this is the case?

So fuck you, pinball gane app, the fuck you need to read my SMS and contacts and camera photos and need my microphone for. No, I just have a new phone and am in a quiet room :-D

Re: Is your smartphone listening to you?

#30

Post by EA »

It's being done because:

1) there is power/money to be gained 2) users will consent to it, actively or passively

#2 isn't really a requirement in emerging technologies and with little case law on the books

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