Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters • Hacker News Board

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#171

Post by rs999gti » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:04 PM UTC

backtoyoujim wrote: post #135

enraged_camel wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood why people believe/feel that buying land and/or a house is the pinnacle of... something. Sure, it gives the person a feeling of control and stability. But rooting oneself in one labor market (vs. being mobile) decreases one's employment options and therefore their salary. It's also very risky, as it's the equivalent of putting one's eggs in one basket and leaves their financial wellbeing in the…

The American Dream was narrated by banks in the USA as a way of fighting "the Red terra" and to make the populace wear the yolk of a mortgage. People with mortgages generally don't protest or strike. As American hegemony spun the globe so did the "own your acres".

> to make the populace wear the yolk of a mortgage. People with mortgages generally don't protest or strike.

You know when I mention this to my co-workers they grimace. We call mortgages and a family the 15-30 year jail sentence.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#172

Post by patrickaljord » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:05 PM UTC

chvid wrote: post #139

I think this is a nice demonstration of how well direct democracy can work. The argument against direct democracy (referendums on any subject any sizeable group wants to put on vote) is that people will be economically irresponsible and vote themselves popular, expensive goodies with no regards of financing or cost. This shows otherwise.

> This shows otherwise.

Switzerland is one the most highly educated and richest country on earth. Do you think the results of direct democracy would be equally responsible in Egypt, Syria or Bolivia? (I'm half-Syrian).

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#173

Post by harryh » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:05 PM UTC

patrickg_zill wrote: post #111

yummyfajitas wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that open borders will help hundreds of millions escape dire poverty, whereas basic income will (at best) reduce some administrative costs and allow some people to live a life of leisure, how do you justify this preference? Do the prospective brown people who might want to escape dire poverty (i.e., gain access to clean running water, flush toilets, and adequate food) just not count? Even if they counted only a…

Your snide comments imply that those who disagree with you are racist. Not exactly your highest quality contribution to HN.

Those that disagree with him are racist. They're explicitly valuing the lives of some people over others simply because of where they were born.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#174

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:07 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #151

yummyfajitas wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are people "already in the country" more deserving than those outside? Why is this a meaningful moral distinction rather than "already in the right religion" or "already of the right race"? I propose helping the millions by not using violence to prevent them from performing labor for willing employers (an action which makes both them and the employer better off). That's all. Sure. Let's open the doors so we have…

> Why are people "already in the country" more deserving than those outside? In average, they aren't. But life isn't fair. You might as well ask why those that came are deserving of help and not others, and your ability to help before it gets detrimental to the collective. > I propose helping the millions by not using violence to prevent them from performing labor for willing employers (an action which makes both the…

If you support unfair collective punishment and protectionism, why limit it to nationality-based groups?

Why not restrict work opportunities for Black Americans also? And to protect "us" from the high rate of crime committed by Blacks, why not force them to live on the other side of town where they are less likely to harm "us"?

(I put "us" in quotes, since I don't consider "us" to refer to any morally meaningful group.)

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#175

Post by rs999gti » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:08 PM UTC

akerro wrote: post #143

enraged_camel wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood why people believe/feel that buying land and/or a house is the pinnacle of... something. Sure, it gives the person a feeling of control and stability. But rooting oneself in one labor market (vs. being mobile) decreases one's employment options and therefore their salary. It's also very risky, as it's the equivalent of putting one's eggs in one basket and leaves their financial wellbeing in the…

And on the opposite, I never understood how people can not own a house and waste money on renting for decades. Where market for houses in western countries is very limited due to stupid regulations and every year a few millions of people move to that country causing renting prices to increase by XX% each year. It decreases my financial stability. Losing a job for less than a month is a financial disaster, I still to…

> waste money on renting

How is renting wasting money? Are you not living in the unit? You're gaining 100% benefit by paying rent and receiving a roof over your head.

You must mean a waste by losing out on building equity?

That's a crap shoot in itself. A hot housing market and equity can go into the toilet at anytime due to very irrational market conditions. Look at the housing markets of Las Vegas or Miami for examples.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#176

Post by ancarda » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:09 PM UTC

areyoucrazy wrote: post #68

Basic Income + Open Borders = National Suicide This proposal probably wouldn't pass in USA as well, especially given the fact that it's easy to get a Green Card and citizenship.

> it's easy to get a Green Card and citizenship

Can you provide some information on this? As far as I know, it's difficult to emigrate to the USA. If it's easy, I'd love to know more about that as I want to move there.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#177

Post by rs999gti » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:10 PM UTC

taneq wrote: post #168

akerro wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And on the opposite, I never understood how people can not own a house and waste money on renting for decades. Where market for houses in western countries is very limited due to stupid regulations and every year a few millions of people move to that country causing renting prices to increase by XX% each year. It decreases my financial stability. Losing a job for less than a month is a financial disaster, I still to…

It's only a waste if you don't put the difference to work in some way. Owning a house outright is great (I'm 1/3 of the way there) but for most, a 30-year mortgage is no more of a wise decision than a rental. You're just swapping landlord for bank.

> You're just swapping landlord for bank.

And even if you pay off your mortgage you still don't technically own it due to yearly property taxes.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#178

Post by ajkjk » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:11 PM UTC

akerro wrote: post #165

ajkjk wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If losing a job for less than a month is a financial disaster, you're probably not in the market for a house anyway. It's perfectly possible to rent for decades and have years of runway in savings. Also, the burden of being rooted, and of having to maintain a house, could be such a significant detraction to quality of life that it totally makes up the difference. Also, at least in my case as a relatively young Americ…

>Also, the burden of being rooted, and of having to maintain a house, could be such a significant detraction to quality of life that it totally makes up the difference. Yea, so I'm renting a house where my agreement states that I am not allowed to fix or improve the flat myself. All changes must be agreed and made by agency. Current faults in the flat include: leaking water from toilet flush since seal is broken, rep…

Sure, but you shouldn't be surprised to hear that many rental experiences are much more positive than that, or that many people's situations lead them to totally difference conclusions. I've listed a bunch of reasons. You wrote "I never understood how people can not own a house and waste money on renting for decades" above, and my response is "It's easy to understand. Take my perspective as one of the millions of examples."

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#179

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

sbmassey wrote: post #166

yummyfajitas wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that open borders will help hundreds of millions escape dire poverty, whereas basic income will (at best) reduce some administrative costs and allow some people to live a life of leisure, how do you justify this preference? Do the prospective brown people who might want to escape dire poverty (i.e., gain access to clean running water, flush toilets, and adequate food) just not count? Even if they counted only a…

Racist immigration policies are perfectly reasonable if you are a relatively small country whose culture would be at risk from large numbers of people from alien cultures.

What makes them reasonable? Do you subscribe to some sort of corporatist ideology, where the needs/rights of some vague swiss-german corporate outweigh the needs/rights of individual humans?

If so, I'm curious about something. There are 2^{6 billion} possible subsets of humanity. Any individual human is a member of 50% of them. This makes it impossible to treat all corporates equally, so how do you determine which corporates have these rights and which don't?

(I use "corporatist" in the original sense, where a "corporate" is simply some collective of humans rather than specifically a state registered limited liability corporation. I'm also very deliberately NOT mentioning a scary associated word.)

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#180

Post by rs999gti » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 2:14 PM UTC

illumen wrote: post #169

s3nnyy wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're referring to restaurants, that is because the waitress makes around 4000 CHF per month; if you're referring to food in supermarket that is because the clerk behind the counter gets 25 CHF / hour and not 7 EUR like in Germany.

So higher cost of living results in higher prices. Strange that. /s

Higher pay too.