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Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

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Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#131

Post by back_beyond »

cm3 wrote: post #67
Havoc wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The construction of minarets is prohibited. Hardly surprising. Nobody wants to be awoken at ungodly hours by that howling.

I would vote for a ban on regular church bell noise as well if I had the choice. In Germany they also ring at ungodly hours in the morning for most programmers. Just as you wouldn't be able to pass a ban on a mosque's call for prayer in Turkey, you'll have a hard time enforcing a ban on church bells in Europe. That's the reality and I wish religious freedom would extend to not being bothered by any other religion's r…

In the Bible Belt, at least, I'd suspect that the majority of the population does not live close enough to a church to hear its bells.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#132

Post by massysett »

elcapitan wrote: post #4

I wish I would live in a country where essential political decisions like that are made by the people and not by some professional political elite in a far away capital.

Maybe direct democracy works in a small scale, and by "small" I mean a few dozen people in a town.

Referendum is no panacea. A legislative body can tweak legislation and debate it and compromise. When voting on a referendum there is no such compromise. It's just a binary choice.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#133

Post by cm3 »

zo1 wrote: post #115
cm3 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would vote for a ban on regular church bell noise as well if I had the choice. In Germany they also ring at ungodly hours in the morning for most programmers. Just as you wouldn't be able to pass a ban on a mosque's call for prayer in Turkey, you'll have a hard time enforcing a ban on church bells in Europe. That's the reality and I wish religious freedom would extend to not being bothered by any other religion's r…

I'm an atheist and I personally don't mind the sound of church bells. As part of general western culture, we associate them with certain things. Stuff like weddings, and to me, I always think of medieval Europe when I hear them. Monasteries, monks, those sorts of things. However, in contrast, a giant megaphone blaring quite "whiny" or "whingy" (for lack of a better way of describing it) gibberish doesn't evoke anythi…

I have experience with both and I certainly don't find anything comforting in church bell ringing, and frankly I'm sure people in Turkey (atheists included) are used to muezzins and generally not annoyed by it, just as I am to church bells and live with it because I have no choice. That said, I believe that the way you describe it is how you perceive it, but from my experience I wouldn't call it whiny/whingy. It's short, in Arabic, and basically a singing version of call to prayer. Just as church bells have some form of tune to them, so does the muezzin's call to prayer. If we are to name what one might find personally comforting, I wouldn't mind daily gospel music played for the neighborhood by the local church, but I'm sure someone will find that discomforting as well. And to be clear, I am not a Christian.

My main objection is that if you have religious freedom, then either all churches/mosques/temples get the same freedom to call to prayer or none does. The exclusivity of church bells in Europe and muezzins east of Europe is the basic conflict of fairness here. So, realistically, given that we cannot allow them all, including pagans, satanists (death metal?), the most logical conclusion would be to generally disallow, with exceptions where the population insists on it.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#134

Post by tomp »

DrNuke wrote: post #31

It is premature but inevitable: automation, stagnant growth, migrations and deflation are all pushing towards universal basic income. Not 2k euros/month but enough to allow surviving and decency.

I really can't follow this logic. If anything, at least automation and deflation are strongly pushing towards everything getting much cheaper. So soon, 2k/month will be plenty!

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#135

Post by backtoyoujim »

enraged_camel wrote: post #97
akerro wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As already mentioned, you're ignoring a fact that even by working there for 10 years, it's close to impossible to buy a part of land and build a house anywhere near a city. Land and house prices are too high to stay there for live. It's only profitable to live there, make savings and buy 2-3 houses in Uk/Germany for it. Like two of my co-workers did.

I've never understood why people believe/feel that buying land and/or a house is the pinnacle of... something. Sure, it gives the person a feeling of control and stability. But rooting oneself in one labor market (vs. being mobile) decreases one's employment options and therefore their salary. It's also very risky, as it's the equivalent of putting one's eggs in one basket and leaves their financial wellbeing in the…

The American Dream was narrated by banks in the USA as a way of fighting "the Red terra" and to make the populace wear the yolk of a mortgage. People with mortgages generally don't protest or strike.

As American hegemony spun the globe so did the "own your acres".

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#136

Post by chinathrow »

s3nnyy wrote: post #65
akerro wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As already mentioned, you're ignoring a fact that even by working there for 10 years, it's close to impossible to buy a part of land and build a house anywhere near a city. Land and house prices are too high to stay there for live. It's only profitable to live there, make savings and buy 2-3 houses in Uk/Germany for it. Like two of my co-workers did.

In Zurich city it is not impossible to buy property, it is just very hard. Everything surrounding Zurich is affordable also for software engineers. I was looking into buying a three room apartment in Effretikon (20 min from Zurich by train) for 370k. I work here for 2 years and could afford the downpayment (20% of the buying price).

Parent was posting about buying a house with land. Your example is for a (small) condo - way cheaper than what he was talking about.

Edit: Parent was posting about buying a house in Switzerland - and that is really expensive in the surroundings of Zurich. Buying a condo is cheaper in any case - I just made a statement that you can't compare oranges to apples.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#137

Post by AJ007 »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #51
raverbashing wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welfare without limits is incompatible with Open Borders Remains to be seen who will want to actually do the (needed) jobs when staying at home is enough I am in favour of Basic Income, but it's not such clear cut

Given that open borders will help hundreds of millions escape dire poverty, whereas basic income will (at best) reduce some administrative costs and allow some people to live a life of leisure, how do you justify this preference? Do the prospective brown people who might want to escape dire poverty (i.e., gain access to clean running water, flush toilets, and adequate food) just not count? Even if they counted only a…

There is a pretty good case that a vacuum of talent created by the brain drain in poor countries makes it extraordinarily difficult for those countries to reform their governments and develop in to functional economies.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#138

Post by yummyfajitas »

raverbashing wrote: post #83
yummyfajitas wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that open borders will help hundreds of millions escape dire poverty, whereas basic income will (at best) reduce some administrative costs and allow some people to live a life of leisure, how do you justify this preference? Do the prospective brown people who might want to escape dire poverty (i.e., gain access to clean running water, flush toilets, and adequate food) just not count? Even if they counted only a…

> how do you justify this preference? One is helping the ones that are already in the country, the other one isn't. I'm not against helping, but there is a limit. How do you propose to help "millions" when a lot of them can't even read http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/syrian-read-englis... > Do the prospective brown people who might want to immigrate just not count? Sure. Let's open the doors so we have more…

Why are people "already in the country" more deserving than those outside? Why is this a meaningful moral distinction rather than "already in the right religion" or "already of the right race"?

I propose helping the millions by not using violence to prevent them from performing labor for willing employers (an action which makes both them and the employer better off). That's all.

Sure. Let's open the doors so we have more harassment of women, homosexuals and increased Anti-semitism.

If we have adequate law enforcement, isn't this a problem that will rapidly solve itself? The solution is simple: immigrant assaults a homosexual, has his possessions confiscated, goes do jail and is then permanently deported on exit.

The ones who don't commit crimes can continue to peacefully trade with locals.

If you want to impose collective punishment over statistical disparities in crime, should we also collectively punish Black Americans due to their high crime rate?

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#139

Post by chvid »

I think this is a nice demonstration of how well direct democracy can work.

The argument against direct democracy (referendums on any subject any sizeable group wants to put on vote) is that people will be economically irresponsible and vote themselves popular, expensive goodies with no regards of financing or cost.

This shows otherwise.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#140

Post by njs12345 »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #94
crdb wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure about the rent? I rented a 2 bedroom, with windows on 3 sides, next to a park and public transport, and a large balcony with BBQ, for 2 months (so short term let, higher rates), 20 minutes by tram from my office near Seefeld, for 1,500 CHF/month. The landlady did keep my deposit (sorry, "had a professional cleaning done for the exact amount of the deposit", and sent me the detailed list as proof in Germa…

Anecdotally, the cleaning of rented flats in Switzerland is one step down from operating theatres. (While yes the keeping the deposit is a landlord trick the world over, the reasons given are very Swiss) A friend of mine tried to keep their deposit by cleaning it themselves ("took two days and was spotless"). Because the landlady had not got a note from a cleaning firm saying it was clean, she literally could not ren…

With regard to deposit scams, the system we have in the UK works pretty well - the landlord must put the deposit in a government-approved escrow scheme, which then decides any disputes over how much of the deposit should be held back (anecdotally quite fairly).

If the landlord fails to protect your deposit, and does so in what might be considered bad faith, a court will often order them to pay you 3x the deposit as compensation - so they all end up actually doing it.

See https://www.gov.uk/tenancy-deposit-protection/overview

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