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Muhammad Ali has died

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Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#101

Post by lisper »

alayne wrote: post #26
lisper wrote: post #18

The saddest thing about Ali's life IMHO is that he lived in a world where the best way he could make his living was hitting and being hit by others. It is time to recognize boxing for the barbarism that it is and retire it from the repertoire of human activity along with bullfighting and bear baiting.

It's not barbarism when it's consenting adults. Bulls and bears do not consent.

> It's not barbarism when it's consenting adults.

Do you think this is OK?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumfights

The barbarism in bull fighting and bear baiting lies not in the animal's absence of consent. Animals don't consent to be eaten, but eating animals is [EDIT] not generally considered barbaric. What makes boxing and bull fighting and bear baiting barbaric is the fact that the object of the game is to inflict pain on another living being. Many other sports have pain as a consequence (football, rugby), but in boxing the goal is to inflict pain. The more pain the better. The ideal outcome is to render your opponent unconscious. That, IMHO, is barbaric.

Money and social constraints also significantly distort the matter of consent. Muhammed Ali was a black man living in an age of discrimination. His professional prospects were limited more by the color of his skin than by the content of his character. I think he was capable of a lot more than bashing people's skulls in. But because society places so much value on bashing people's skulls in, we will never know.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#102

Post by coldtea »

n72 wrote: post #75
elcapitan wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he's correct in the choice of the word "allowed" - yes, he had to fight for his beliefs, very hard fights, but he lived in a society that still valued individual struggle and determination, and that in the end rewarded it with success. Otherwise he couldn't have achieved what he has achieved. It's at least debatable if in today's softer world somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest wo…

"somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest would still be "allowed" to earn reputation that way" Golden age fallacy? Off the top of my head, here are few people who fit that description in various ways and who seem to be doing quite well, despite today's "softer world": Donald Trump, Kanye West, Peter Thiel Also, softer world? He faced constant death threats. Also: "Almost as quickly as Ali had…

>Golden age fallacy?

I take offense to the idea of the "golden age fallacy".

Let's constrain fallacies to actual logical mistakes.

Some things actually have had a golden age -- e.g. for bebop it can be fairly accurately be told to be certain decades, and it's not wrong to point to that to say that things are not the same anymore.

(And even if individual outliers might produce an X equivalent to a "golden era of X" artifact, statistically it would still be true to say that now it's not like the golden era of X, if less such works are produced in total and even less consumed and appreciated -- e.g. if I make a great "Miami Bass" tune, it wont mean that the late eights weren't the "golden age" of Miami Bass).

In fact the golden age is so much not a fallacy, that is a valid historical construct (e.g. for Roman democracy the golden age was so and so centuries -- no ifs and buts about it).

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#103

Post by gus_massa »

ck2 wrote: post #84

Don't care for people hitting each other, even if it is consensual HOWEVER - he overcame amazing odds for growing up in a heavily racist, segregated country and I have massive respect for him giving up his career while refusing to serve in the Vietnam War and kill others simply at the order of the government. So why do we always wait for people to die to honor them - why not do it when they can appreciate it?

There are a lot of small honor ceremonies, for example he lighted the olympic torch in Atlanta 1996. The problem is that is difficult to coordinate that all the major newspaper put an article about him in the front page. (Perhaps for some anniversary, like the x0th anniversary of the word championship? And what happens if he lives 10 more years?)

Also, there is some social norms that prevent criticism at the obituaries so they are more hagiographic than usual articles.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#105

Post by alayne »

lisper wrote: post #101
alayne wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not barbarism when it's consenting adults. Bulls and bears do not consent.

> It's not barbarism when it's consenting adults. Do you think this is OK? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumfights The barbarism in bull fighting and bear baiting lies not in the animal's absence of consent. Animals don't consent to be eaten, but eating animals is [EDIT] not generally considered barbaric. What makes boxing and bull fighting and bear baiting barbaric is the fact that the object of the game is to infli…

Plenty of people think eating animals is barbaric.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#106

Post by me_and_you »

ceyhunkazel wrote: post #63

He is a man who have a heart that bigger than his fists. “Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on Brown people in Vietnam while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights? No I’m not going 10,000 miles from home to help murder and burn another poor nation simply to continue the domination of white slave maste…

Pretty incredible. Made me proud of him when I read that.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#107

Post by icc97 »

There's a couple of people in here still referring to Ali as Cassius Clay or Mr. Clay. He's quite clear in this excellent interview talking about racism [1] that Clay was a slave name and he was now a free man and wants to be called Muhammad Ali.

> "How would a Chinese look named 'Robert Smith'?"

  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtxfTEyJZg4

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#108

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

plq wrote: post #56

This news item currently has 260 upvotes on hacker news . Think about this a little. Think and try to name anybody else from boxing (or heck, any other sports) who could be up here. I know can't think of more than a few people. He was the greatest in his time. Rest in peace, Mr. Clay. You are among the icons of the 20th century.

Why do you call him "Mr Clay"?

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#109

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

icc97 wrote: post #107

There's a couple of people in here still referring to Ali as Cassius Clay or Mr. Clay. He's quite clear in this excellent interview talking about racism [1] that Clay was a slave name and he was now a free man and wants to be called Muhammad Ali. > "How would a Chinese look named 'Robert Smith'?" [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtxfTEyJZg4

Lots of people still fighting those culture wars.
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