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Muhammad Ali has died

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Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#61

Post by sametmax »

draven wrote: post #49
sametmax wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody allowed him to be this at the time either. It was not easier in any way. He just had the gut to do it. In France we had some old celebrity known for their very funny yet inapropriate one man show. Everybody said that he would not be able to do the same today. Well, all his friends responded, at the time neither. He got sued. Threaten. Physically and financially attacked. Disruption is always hard. And eventual…

> In France we had some old celebrity known for their very funny yet inapropriate one man show. Who would that be ? I immediately thought about Desproges.

Desproges indeed. Coluche too, and the whole Hara kiri team.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#62

Post by elcapitan »

slg wrote: post #29
walru wrote: post #14

Muhammad Ali is something we won't allow public figures to be anymore. Being outspoken and standing up for his beliefs, against all repercussions, were his his greatest feat(s). I hope, over all else, his contributions to the human spirit reign over the rest of us. We need another (dozen) Cassius Clays.

Ali wasn't "allowed" anything. He lost his livelihood for roughly a third of his athletic prime for standing up for his beliefs. He faced constant racism and bigotry. He was viewed as a bad guy by most of the country for much of his early career. Many people even refused to call him Muhammad Ali including other African American boxers. He persevered and became popular through shear will, determination, charisma, and…

I think he's correct in the choice of the word "allowed" - yes, he had to fight for his beliefs, very hard fights, but he lived in a society that still valued individual struggle and determination, and that in the end rewarded it with success. Otherwise he couldn't have achieved what he has achieved. It's at least debatable if in today's softer world somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest would still be "allowed" to earn reputation that way. I would argue that competing for victimhood status has become the prevalent approved strategy rather than fighting for your cause.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#63

Post by ceyhunkazel »

He is a man who have a heart that bigger than his fists. “Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on Brown people in Vietnam while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights? No I’m not going 10,000 miles from home to help murder and burn another poor nation simply to continue the domination of white slave masters of the darker people the world over. This is the day when such evils must come to an end. I have been warned that to take such a stand would cost me millions of dollars. But I have said it once and I will say it again. The real enemy of my people is here. I will not disgrace my religion, my people or myself by becoming a tool to enslave those who are fighting for their own justice, freedom and equality. If I thought the war was going to bring freedom and equality to 22 million of my people they wouldn’t have to draft me, I’d join tomorrow. I have nothing to lose by standing up for my beliefs. So I’ll go to jail, so what? We’ve been in jail for 400 years.”

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#64

Post by evincarofautumn »

mahmud wrote: post #33
walru wrote: post #14

Muhammad Ali is something we won't allow public figures to be anymore. Being outspoken and standing up for his beliefs, against all repercussions, were his his greatest feat(s). I hope, over all else, his contributions to the human spirit reign over the rest of us. We need another (dozen) Cassius Clays.

> We need another (dozen) Cassius Clays. And yet you call him by a name he himself changed and hated.

If you want to grow pickles, it’s right to ask for cucumber seeds, even though a cucumber is not a pickle.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#65

Post by unclebucknasty »

daveguy wrote: post #45
danso wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn...whenever I watch boxing movies like Rocky, I always think the action and power look so fake compared to what you normally see when watching broadcast boxing fights. But I guess if you grew up watching videos of Ali, you'd have a higher expectation of razzle-dazzle.

I wonder if is now ingrained in boxing training to move like that -- no one notices a big difference like they did with Ali because everyone is trained to move like that. Looking back through the videos I have to think that none of the heavyweight boxers move like that today. I wonder if there will be a renaissance in boxing where you have a whole generation of boxers moving like Ali. Does anyone follow boxing? Can a…

Sadly, boxing as a sport has much declined since Ali's day, and especially in recent years. In particular, the heavyweight division has been found most acutely lacking for some time.

However, you are correct that heavyweights don't and have not typically "moved like that". Even those who were relatively fast and defensively gifted (e.g. a young Tyson) didn't move as poetically.

He moved like a boxer of a much lower weight class and, beyond even that, he moved like Ali. Graceful. Fluid. Quick. Rhythmic. Instinctive. Check out some of his highlights on YouTube. There are entire sequences during which he defied opponents to hit him through head/upper body movement alone. Hands are low and movement is so fast and well-timed that it seems to predict his opponent's next move. It's as if he is training his opponent to punch wherever he moves his head, and his opponent is reacting to him vs. the other way around.

And, this is to say nothing of his footwork. He glided without effort and the mechansim by which he changed direction was almost imperceptible. It seemed that he was being guided on a wire versus using his legs. Back then, it was amazing to see a man his size (or any) move like that, and it would be just as much so today.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#66

Post by joeyspn »

My biggest sports idol, rude from outside (probably because of his "job") but inspiring, compassionate and with an enormous heart on the inside....

Superbowl 2004, in one of the classic IBM's Linux commercials, teaching Linux (represented by a kid) how to grow up...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BesI6NEPWlM

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#67

Post by mevile »

GauntletWizard wrote: post #34
mevile wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Muhammad Ali is something we won't allow public figures to be anymore. Being outspoken and standing up for his beliefs, against all repercussions, were his his greatest feat(s). What? You think current public figures are being prevented from being out spoken? Have you seen 50cent's twitter? Have you seen Donald Trump's? Lots of people are being out spoken, maybe more than I personally like, but whatever floats thei…

There's a big difference between Trump's blowhard populism and Muhammad Ali's firm, unpopular beliefs. Trump says things with no filter, with utter disregard for their meaning, consequence, or congruence with the last thing he said. I respect him for having the guts to be stream of consciousness and throwing out each thought, but he's not, in any of his campaign, stating policy, but just this thought process. Muhamma…

I'm not comparing Muhammad Ali to these people. I'm refuting that public people aren't allowed to be outspoken. Muhammad Ali maybe had more meaningful things to say and said them well but lots of public people are outspoken on all kinds of things.

Re: Muhammad Ali has died

#68

Post by hartpuff »

slg wrote: post #29
walru wrote: post #14

Muhammad Ali is something we won't allow public figures to be anymore. Being outspoken and standing up for his beliefs, against all repercussions, were his his greatest feat(s). I hope, over all else, his contributions to the human spirit reign over the rest of us. We need another (dozen) Cassius Clays.

Ali wasn't "allowed" anything. He lost his livelihood for roughly a third of his athletic prime for standing up for his beliefs. He faced constant racism and bigotry. He was viewed as a bad guy by most of the country for much of his early career. Many people even refused to call him Muhammad Ali including other African American boxers. He persevered and became popular through shear will, determination, charisma, and…

> Ali wasn't "allowed" anything. He lost his livelihood for roughly a third of his athletic prime for standing up for his beliefs. He faced constant racism and bigotry.

Joe Frazier supported Ali financially when he was unable to box and supported the restoration of Ali's licence.

"The greatest" [sic], who for reasons you have stated should have been more aware than most about racism and abuse, paid back this great friend who supported him while others persecuted him in the most foul, racist ways (Ali had links to the KKK and gave at least one speech to a KKK rally), calling Frazier an "Uncle Tom" and a "gorilla".

This post obviously won't go down well with Ali fanboys who only accept the hype and mythology and who don't want unfortunate facts about Ali getting any wider exposure, but Ali's reprehensible treatment of Frazier was so egregiously appalling - even had Frazier not been such a decent and loyal supporter of Ali - it should not be hidden, forgotten or excused, any more than the persecution Ali faced should be.

Anyone who hasn't seen it should check out HBO's brilliant documentary from a few years back, centred around the Thrilla in Manila. It's on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUQNKb_1xlc

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