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Salary Negotiation

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Re: Salary Negotiation

#241

Post by basseq »

quaffapint wrote: post #204
whack wrote: post #139

I've heard this "don't name a number first" advice so many times, but personally, it never seems to work. My current comp is significantly higher compared to others with my level of experience. So when I refuse to give a number, the recruiter ends up guessing a number that is significantly lower, and making a lowball offer. I've also had many other experiences where after many hours of interviews, I find out that the…

Biggest problem I have is base salary vs overall 'salary'. Recruiters always ask what salary I'm looking for. How does one answer that, when you consider benefits, 401k, average bonus, etc. It could be $10k difference. So, I usually say I need to see the whole package they are offering to get you a number.

Be clear: "I am looking for a competitive package that includes base, bonus, equity, 401(k), and benefits." Then either: "I am looking for total comp package of $XX." or "I am looking for a base salary of $YY."

Re: Salary Negotiation

#242

Post by pnut »

blaze33 wrote: post #32
swombat wrote: post #5

We're really trying to nail a good way to deal with salary negotiations when onboarding people, at GrantTree - one that gets out of this "gotcha" approach to salary. So far the best we've figured out is to be the first ones to name a number, and be super-transparent about how we arrived at that number. The reasoning is that "in a salary negotiation the first person to quote a number loses", so since we (as the employ…

I read about someone who described his own salary negotiation: he writes the minimum salary he's willing to take, the recruiter writes the maximum they're willing to pay , then you show your numbers. If minimum > maximum, call it a day otherwise you continue the negociation. His trick was to write a minimum of 0 as in if you're not satisfied with his job he won't take your money, supposedly he got much better offers…

In a world of unpaid internships, I think there are probably a number of employers who would break out the contract with a big, fat goose egg on it if you tried this.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#243

Post by erikb »

fsloth wrote: post #218
whack wrote: post #139

I've heard this "don't name a number first" advice so many times, but personally, it never seems to work. My current comp is significantly higher compared to others with my level of experience. So when I refuse to give a number, the recruiter ends up guessing a number that is significantly lower, and making a lowball offer. I've also had many other experiences where after many hours of interviews, I find out that the…

I suppose it's a good rule of thumb while figuring out the dynamics and the influence game of the negotiations. The best thing I did for my negotiation skill was to read up popular psychology books on influence. It may not make me a negotiations pro but just being able to name some of the dynamics and recognize some of the tactics puts me (or so I feel) at a far better position at the discussions. E.g. it's easier to…

I would agree with your first statement "good for learning" if learning would be about maximing each result of a learning experience. But actually learning is more efficient if you do mistakes that you can evaluate and make decisions based on them. And if you don't say a number you don't make a mistake. Therefore I would say that not saying anything may increase your knowledge of your value but it doesn't increase your skill. Saying the wrong number, walking out happily and later learning from a coworker that you earn only 25% of him, then you learn something and look for another job.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#244

Post by swombat »

reitanqild wrote: post #105
JamesBarney wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't find the study, but a South American government(I forgot which country) had the same fears. They wanted better employees and they were afraid if they paid them too much they would get people primarily interested in the money and not the job. But they decided to try it anyway, and lo and behold they were surprised to find the higher played employees were not only better employees but also more motivated intrin…

Practical example: my current employer pays me the same in base salary as my previous employer paid me in base salary + duty + overtime. Oh, and they do it without ever telling me I ough to work more. For me this translates to happily walking the extra mile. It also means my wife is ok with me working a bit extra here and there because I love my job. And it means a whole less paperwork and talk about overtime or not.

I would float to you the idea that what you're reacting to is not necessarily the higher wage but the fact your new employer seems to trust you more and perhaps even care about you more.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#245

Post by erikb »

swombat wrote: post #5

We're really trying to nail a good way to deal with salary negotiations when onboarding people, at GrantTree - one that gets out of this "gotcha" approach to salary. So far the best we've figured out is to be the first ones to name a number, and be super-transparent about how we arrived at that number. The reasoning is that "in a salary negotiation the first person to quote a number loses", so since we (as the employ…

Yes, open information, even going so far as to teach your bargaining partner, is the best way to reach a really fair end result and making people feel that way.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#246

Post by branchless »

dpweb wrote: post #137
Mendenhall wrote: post #106

It was always pretty simple for me personally, If you don't want to pay me what I want, you are free to hire someone else. I find the most important part is being able to walk away, If you negotiate from a position of weakness or need you are behind already. If I am hiring I know what I can afford to pay, what I think the position is "worth" and what I want out of it and make an offer according. I like ideally to pay…

Recently bought a car and went by myself cause a friend and wife didn't even want to talk to the sales guy - such a fear of negotiation. I want to be prepared going in, so the plan was: They have a price, I counter. They counter in the middle. I either take that price or walk, that's it. No further negotiation. Reduced the stress by just sticking to that.

I'm like the guy in the The life of Brian "don't you want to haggle!".

If I take my wife I play it cool and say "hmm, it's okay" and my wife starts arguing with me, "no it's great what are you talking about" and the salesman gives me a look of pity before naming his price. Oh god.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#247

Post by erikb »

TrickzOnU wrote: post #68

Let me share my horror story -- I fell for a company that offered me the same salary (no raise despite big promotion.) Then, he (Division CTO of Fortune 500 medical company) started subtracting salary from this baseline for all my "benefits" like free shuttles, 401k matching, etc. I was supposed to take the lower wage in exchange for amazing work, 3 fully paid conferences a year, yada yadda. Two months into joining,…

You are probably trying to show us how bad your employer is. What I'm reading though, is how you should have walked away at least 5 times in the process.

What part of the work is actually "great" btw. I would guess you don't have any other job yet. Because everything sounds very horrible.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#248

Post by johngalt »

TrickzOnU wrote: post #68

Let me share my horror story -- I fell for a company that offered me the same salary (no raise despite big promotion.) Then, he (Division CTO of Fortune 500 medical company) started subtracting salary from this baseline for all my "benefits" like free shuttles, 401k matching, etc. I was supposed to take the lower wage in exchange for amazing work, 3 fully paid conferences a year, yada yadda. Two months into joining,…

Yeah that is the old 'total compensation' switcheroo. Where you finish negotiations at what you assume is a salary number, but the employer later claims it was a total compensation number (salary + benefits). When the 'benefits' could change later, or they are accounted for using Hollywood accounting.

Another common one to look out for is 'projected bonus'. Where you find out that you make 1/2 of what you thought you agreed to, but the manager says "Making that much is up to you! You could make that number with bonus" (if you hit your ultra stretch goals that the company could change at any time).

These are both reasons to insist on an offer letter with the salary figure clearly stated. Also pay attention to the background of a hiring manager. This kind of BS mostly comes from people who were previously in a sales role.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#249

Post by basseq »

wtracy wrote: post #182
linkregister wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just make sure you aren't waiting for them to relinquish the keys to your car they took to evaluate its value as a trade-in. I once had to threaten to call the police in order to get the keys back so I could leave!

Actually, never trade in your existing car at the dealer where you make your new purchase (unless you are a skilled negotiator). Typically, whatever discounts you ask for on the new car, they will quietly subtract from their "evaluation" of your old car's value.

Alternatively, have another offer in hand. CarMax is a good way to establish a minimum quickly and easily. You can always get more in the private market, but you should weigh the trade-offs in speed of transaction. (E.g., I could spend 10 hours and the next 2 weeks posting on Craigslist and dealing with people and get $12k, or I could sell to the dealer now for $10k. That might be worth it to me.)

I've done this a couple times: the first time the dealer came back with a better number, and I took it. The second time the dealer was way low and I sold on the private market for 100% more.

The real key is to separate out variables. Negotiate only on the bottom-line cash value of the car(s), and know when to walk.

Last car I bought, the dealer tried to play hardball and told me there was another individual looking to purchase the same vehicle for more. I told them to take the other offer, and put my coat on. I should have gone over and introduced myself to the other guy.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#250

Post by Infernal »

basseq wrote: post #234
whack wrote: post #139

I've heard this "don't name a number first" advice so many times, but personally, it never seems to work. My current comp is significantly higher compared to others with my level of experience. So when I refuse to give a number, the recruiter ends up guessing a number that is significantly lower, and making a lowball offer. I've also had many other experiences where after many hours of interviews, I find out that the…

There's also the concept of a negotiation anchor. In that it's better to name the first number and make it borderline ridiculous and in your favor. So that anything lower seems like a deal. Hypothetical situation time. I'm a job seeker and my minimum acceptable salary is $100k. You're a recruiter and your range is $80-$120k. Neither of us know the others' number. If I make you say a number first, you would start at t…

The first half of your post reduces to "know how much the prospective employer is willing to pay". Anchoring high only works if you know what "high" is. If the recruiter had a 150k-200k range in mind, and you throw out 150k, then you've just cheated yourself.

There's lots of advice in this thread to "know what you're worth", but where is that signal coming from?

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