Salary Negotiation • Hacker News Board

Re: Salary Negotiation

#171

Post by mehrdada » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 6:30 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #165

mehrdada wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would work fine except you may not have a ton of time to waste. The problem is, in practice, as someone with an outlier comp, you may end up having to go interview at a company only to realize at the end of the whole interview dance when they cough up a number that such number is nowhere close to your expectations. (That said, I completely agree that it is generally good advice to not disclose your salary expect…

You would have to waste a lot of time for it not to be worth it. Lets say through your entire interview process at multiple companies, it adds an extra 10 hours. If that gets you $10k a year (or more) over 5 years, I am pretty sure that is worth it.

You need to multiply that with the probability of the companies not beating your current salary. The higher your current salary, this probability will go higher, and your interview cost will too. In effect, interviewing not being worth your time is proportional to your salary squared--not a linear relation.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#172

Post by 15155 » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 6:31 PM UTC

Mendenhall wrote: post #135

JoblessWonder wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find its the person who is applying that has the power not the company I think you are assuming the person applying has some sort of safety net (a current job, savings, alternate income.) That is where the BATNA comes into play. Sure, if you are already making an acceptable amount of money to meet your needs, aren't overworked/over-stressed, and relatively satisfied then you are indeed in a position of power. If…

Then the person applying will be in a position of weakness. That to me is letting "worry" even if real drag you down. I think when you really need something it is even more important to negotiate from a position of strength, if not they will sense it and pick it apart. In some ways its much like dating, does anyone really want the desperate type ?

> In some ways its much like dating, does anyone really want the desperate type ?

I think this question has been answered and studied quite well. If you have a significant lapse in employment (with or without explanation) or are obviously needy, prospective employers will have negative biases that directly translate into less compensation.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#173

Post by zenlikethat » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 6:32 PM UTC

eastbayjake wrote: post #127

pm215 wrote: post #116

So something I'd like to get advice on is: what do you do negotiation-wise if actually salary is not the thing you care most about? Suppose you (for health reasons or just because you don't need the extra money and like the reduced stress) want or need to work less than the usual five-day week -- at what point do you bring up the "hey, how about a four-day week" question, when the typical employer is looking for a fi…

It seems like the same principle is in play: demonstrate your value first, then talk about terms after they're sold on you and want to make an offer. I can't imagine any company that would flat-out refuse a talented candidate over a 4-day week request, but I think most would sideline you if it was brought up before you'd demonstrated the value you can add to their business. In fact, I'll bet many companies would view…

I don't think so. 4 day work week would be a deal breaker for most companies. If Joe gets hired in and never works Fridays pretty soon everyone else will want Fridays off too. Salary is irrelevant, it's human nature.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#174

Post by chefkoch » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 6:32 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #150

whack wrote: post #139

I've heard this "don't name a number first" advice so many times, but personally, it never seems to work. My current comp is significantly higher compared to others with my level of experience. So when I refuse to give a number, the recruiter ends up guessing a number that is significantly lower, and making a lowball offer. I've also had many other experiences where after many hours of interviews, I find out that the…

I'm in a similar boat - and definitely not naming a number first has caused friction when the initial offer ends up coming in way below my existing comp. But I'm sticking with the strategy. Ultimately the jobs where, in a vacuum and asked to value the job themselves, they come up with a number a sad fraction of your current comp, there was simply no scenario in which you would have been happy with comp at that place.…

>personally I wouldn't even bother interviewing at places where I know for certain the comp won't hit my expectations

Why would anyone do that?

Re: Salary Negotiation

#175

Post by zenlikethat » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 6:35 PM UTC

mehrdada wrote: post #159

zenlikethat wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another poster noted, the best way to resolve this is to ask the recruiter up front what the salary range at play is. If they still won't disclose, you have to make a calculated risk based on how much you like the org and how much they seem likely to offer.

Yes, and many savvy recruiters would make you make the calculated risk anyway. Note that at that stage, the recruiters are highly incentivized to say or allude to "we can beat everyone/are competitive" without saying a number and make you interview with the company at the beginning of the process (with various excuses, including not having the authority to talk about actual numbers and that decision being prorogued t…

The solution to this is easy: don't bother with that uncooperative recruiter. Remember, we're talking about trying to jump from one high paying job to a higher paying job here, so why bother with uncooperative recruiters? They need you much worse than you need them.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#176

Post by JoblessWonder » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 6:37 PM UTC

Mendenhall wrote: post #135

JoblessWonder wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find its the person who is applying that has the power not the company I think you are assuming the person applying has some sort of safety net (a current job, savings, alternate income.) That is where the BATNA comes into play. Sure, if you are already making an acceptable amount of money to meet your needs, aren't overworked/over-stressed, and relatively satisfied then you are indeed in a position of power. If…

Then the person applying will be in a position of weakness. That to me is letting "worry" even if real drag you down. I think when you really need something it is even more important to negotiate from a position of strength, if not they will sense it and pick it apart. In some ways its much like dating, does anyone really want the desperate type ?

That is exactly what I'm saying. They are in a position of weakness. Their BATNA is losing everything they have. You don't need to be desperate, but you can't be as cut-throat.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#177

Post by etjossem » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 6:38 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #152

ThomaszKrueger wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. As soon as I say what I make recruiters usually congratulate me on making what I make and won't call me back. So recruiters are only good for run of the mill, entry level folks, not really for highly skilled or specialized developers.

If they're just looking for butts in seats, why do crooters stop talking to you unless you have at least n years experience (n often quite large) in the client's exact tech stack? "They're looking for a candidate who's ready to hit the ground running..."

Because they don't want to waste their time on someone their client won't agree to hire. It's a numbers game, and from a time perspective, meeting you for coffee and shopping your resume around isn't completely free.

Years of experience in the client's stack are a pretty good proxy for whether the employer will want to talk to you.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#178

Post by JoblessWonder » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 6:38 PM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #149

Mendenhall wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the person applying will be in a position of weakness. That to me is letting "worry" even if real drag you down. I think when you really need something it is even more important to negotiate from a position of strength, if not they will sense it and pick it apart. In some ways its much like dating, does anyone really want the desperate type ?

"Always be able to walk away" is not very good advice to people who don't have the option to walk away, whether people should always have that option or not in a perfect world. "Pretend you're able to walk away" possibly is, but not everyone's good at playing games like that. The alternative to not working is, eventually, losing almost everything you have. The alternative to not having a romantic partner is, well, no…

You get what I'm trying to say. :) Thanks for trying to clear it up.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#179

Post by mehrdada » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 6:38 PM UTC

zenlikethat wrote: post #175

mehrdada wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and many savvy recruiters would make you make the calculated risk anyway. Note that at that stage, the recruiters are highly incentivized to say or allude to "we can beat everyone/are competitive" without saying a number and make you interview with the company at the beginning of the process (with various excuses, including not having the authority to talk about actual numbers and that decision being prorogued t…

The solution to this is easy: don't bother with that uncooperative recruiter. Remember, we're talking about trying to jump from one high paying job to a higher paying job here, so why bother with uncooperative recruiters? They need you much worse than you need them.

I agree. Following that recipe, you decide on ending the phone call with a nice, but uncooperative about blurting out a number recruiter who claims they can be competitive.

Now the question is this: if you are willing to blow off the whole process anyway on that call, why not at least try giving them a number and give them a chance and see if they would beat it?

Re: Salary Negotiation

#180

Post by cozuya » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 6:38 PM UTC

15155 wrote: post #131

illumin8 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This exactly. I'm senior in my field (and pretty damn good), and many times recruiters will contact me about a position that sounds like a great opportunity - for example, I was recently contacted by a large financial services company who wanted to hire a senior manager to lead a cloud services team. When I told them my salary expectation, they said their range topped out at half that. First, I was a bit shocked to h…

> many times recruiters will contact me Recruiters are easy: "What is the client's targeted range for this position?" or "What have you placed other people for at this company?" If the top-end of the range is within some arbitrary percentage of your target, pursue, otherwise: "no thanks!"

You can turn it around on them a little bit by replying "this sounds like it may be a good fit for me, but I'll need a salary range from you in order to move forward" and then the whole conversation is short circuited.