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Salary Negotiation

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Re: Salary Negotiation

#131

Post by 15155 »

illumin8 wrote: post #46
ohjeez wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most discussions about salary negotiation are about postponing the money discussion until we know there's a fit. But what do you do when you-as-applicant need to be sure you're not wasting your time (or theirs)? That is: I'm really senior in my field, with 25 years of experience, and for several years I've been commanding top dollar. (I'm worth it, too!) But often I start discussions with would-be employers (or clien…

This exactly. I'm senior in my field (and pretty damn good), and many times recruiters will contact me about a position that sounds like a great opportunity - for example, I was recently contacted by a large financial services company who wanted to hire a senior manager to lead a cloud services team. When I told them my salary expectation, they said their range topped out at half that. First, I was a bit shocked to h…

> many times recruiters will contact me

Recruiters are easy: "What is the client's targeted range for this position?" or "What have you placed other people for at this company?"

If the top-end of the range is within some arbitrary percentage of your target, pursue, otherwise: "no thanks!"

Re: Salary Negotiation

#132

Post by FLUX-YOU »

billions wrote: post #42

Why are developers NOT paid proportional to output? A 5x developer should get paid more than a 2x dev but that doesn't seem to happen

What do you do if you find a security exploit down the road that costs the company thousands but you already paid for his output?

Re: Salary Negotiation

#133

Post by toyg »

pm215 wrote: post #116

So something I'd like to get advice on is: what do you do negotiation-wise if actually salary is not the thing you care most about? Suppose you (for health reasons or just because you don't need the extra money and like the reduced stress) want or need to work less than the usual five-day week -- at what point do you bring up the "hey, how about a four-day week" question, when the typical employer is looking for a fi…

Following the podcast argument, I'd say you bring it up when you're ok to talk numbers. At that point, ideally you've already "made them want you" enough, that losing one day could look like a price worth paying. You should probably be honest though, and talk about it upfront as soon as compensation negotiation starts, accepting (or even suggesting) they could lower their salary range in exchange. Or simply negotiate on extra holidays, so you can use extra days to actually get a 4-day week once or twice a month.

If you're a super-hotshot ninjastar who wrote Rails and founded a Linux distribution that now runs the Japanese train system, then you could probably get both a spectacular salary and part-time hours, but realistically the two will not go together for most people. (Which, incidentally, is a typical problem for women with families and one of the reasons their salaries remain lower on average.)

Re: Salary Negotiation

#134

Post by dgreensp »

ohjeez wrote: post #30
JoshDoody wrote: post #3

Hi everyone! That's me you hear talking to Patrick ;) If you have any questions about the episode or salary negotiation in general, ask away! As you can probably tell, I love talking about this stuff!

Most discussions about salary negotiation are about postponing the money discussion until we know there's a fit. But what do you do when you-as-applicant need to be sure you're not wasting your time (or theirs)? That is: I'm really senior in my field, with 25 years of experience, and for several years I've been commanding top dollar. (I'm worth it, too!) But often I start discussions with would-be employers (or clien…

This is me, too. If you know what you're worth and what salary or range you are willing to take, you can just answer the question. I like to dodge the question about previous salary if it's lower than I want, but if there's a number that would make you happy that you know is in step with the market, you can just say it.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#135

Post by Mendenhall »

JoblessWonder wrote: post #119
Mendenhall wrote: post #106

It was always pretty simple for me personally, If you don't want to pay me what I want, you are free to hire someone else. I find the most important part is being able to walk away, If you negotiate from a position of weakness or need you are behind already. If I am hiring I know what I can afford to pay, what I think the position is "worth" and what I want out of it and make an offer according. I like ideally to pay…

> I find its the person who is applying that has the power not the company I think you are assuming the person applying has some sort of safety net (a current job, savings, alternate income.) That is where the BATNA comes into play. Sure, if you are already making an acceptable amount of money to meet your needs, aren't overworked/over-stressed, and relatively satisfied then you are indeed in a position of power. If…

Then the person applying will be in a position of weakness. That to me is letting "worry" even if real drag you down. I think when you really need something it is even more important to negotiate from a position of strength, if not they will sense it and pick it apart.

In some ways its much like dating, does anyone really want the desperate type ?

Re: Salary Negotiation

#136

Post by fourneau »

ThomaszKrueger wrote: post #65
OhHeyItsE wrote: post #61

I've had multiple situations where I did answer (honestly, too - before I knew any better) the "dreaded" question up front and had the recruiter tell me: "Wow. You must work for a really great company! We can't even come close to matching that." Process ended right there, countless time saved. So, as with all things, YMMV.

Same here. As soon as I say what I make recruiters usually congratulate me on making what I make and won't call me back. So recruiters are only good for run of the mill, entry level folks, not really for highly skilled or specialized developers.

It depends what kind of recruiters you use. At the end of the day, the company that hires the recruiters (whether they're in-house or an external company) should be fine tuning the recruiter's filtering system. With enough patience and direction they can be excellent to find high skilled individuals who are looking for a new job.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#137

Post by dpweb »

Mendenhall wrote: post #106

It was always pretty simple for me personally, If you don't want to pay me what I want, you are free to hire someone else. I find the most important part is being able to walk away, If you negotiate from a position of weakness or need you are behind already. If I am hiring I know what I can afford to pay, what I think the position is "worth" and what I want out of it and make an offer according. I like ideally to pay…

Recently bought a car and went by myself cause a friend and wife didn't even want to talk to the sales guy - such a fear of negotiation.

I want to be prepared going in, so the plan was: They have a price, I counter. They counter in the middle. I either take that price or walk, that's it. No further negotiation. Reduced the stress by just sticking to that.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#138

Post by logicalmind »

blazespin wrote: post #118

The problem with more salary is more responsibility. More likely to be cut if you don't perform at the level commensurate with the salary.

Yep, and this really becomes a problem has you advance in years. I'm a programmer and have been for almost 20 years. When you're younger, you are always negotiating upwards. When you're at a job making 70k and you leave, you go to a new job and ask for 80k. But then you're 40 and making a lot more. Now the question as to what you are offered is different. If they're paying you to be a "programmer", can they really justify that huge salary? They can hire multiple college grads for what they're paying you. So it's not so much about your direct programming skill, but your experience/knowledge/wisdom that they are paying for. And each company is going to value that differently.

Your options really come down to whether you want to truly remain a "programmer" in which you may have to make some concessions to compete with the other programmers in the market. Your responsibilities remain that of a programmer. Or you have to take on a manager/director/architect role which is less programming skill and more people management skill with a lot more responsibility.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#139

Post by whack »

I've heard this "don't name a number first" advice so many times, but personally, it never seems to work. My current comp is significantly higher compared to others with my level of experience. So when I refuse to give a number, the recruiter ends up guessing a number that is significantly lower, and making a lowball offer. I've also had many other experiences where after many hours of interviews, I find out that the company is unable to make me a competitive offer, because my current comp is too high. I'm seriously considering abandoning this advice in future, and simply just naming my comp expectations right at the start.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#140

Post by daxfohl »

Has anyone tried to beat the interviewer to the punch on the salary question? Put them on the spot by asking their range before they hit you with it?
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