The death of neoliberalism from within • Hacker News Board

Re: The death of neoliberalism from within

#71

Post by joshuaheard » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:33 PM UTC

The author correlates low growth with high inequality, that is, the money is being held at the top and if only it were redistributed to the middle, the growth floodgates would open.

But look where else the growth is: emerging markets in the developing countries. So, the rich are not taking from the middle class, the middle class is losing its value to the developing countries. As low-friction information gets to developing countries, they are able to supplant the western middle class in the manufacturing and service sectors. This problem will be exacerbated as western businesses continue to automate.

The solution here is not protectionism or the stricter regulation of markets, but is for the western middle class to adapt to the changing paradigm. How to do that is the essential policy question.

Re: The death of neoliberalism from within

#72

Post by cft » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:34 PM UTC

pdeuchler wrote: post #61

marricks wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I'm discussing the narrative, the poster only cites over-regulation as a problem, which I haven't seen bail-outs called before. The language implies government rules are the problem. 2) Many notable economists actually blame deregulation, such as Alan Greenspan & the SEC [0]. I think the man who oversaw much of the deregulation while it was happening calling it a problem in hindsight is a pretty darn good indicati…

Nobody is arguing for deregulation. We just want government regulation that doesn't overtly protect the wealth of the ruling class. Stop perpetuating false dichotomies that preclude valid criticism of current policies.

It's fine to protect the wealth that is value creating (like actual industry). What is happening is increasing protection of value transference sectors (banking, pure equities plays that are often tax free, Hollywood's intellectual property), combined with increasing pressure on value creation sectors (higher corporate income tax rates) on actual real income, especially for small business that does not have scale to participate in legal tax dodging schemes.

Re: The death of neoliberalism from within

#73

Post by ewzimm » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

marricks wrote: post #29

elgabogringo wrote: post #13

Neoliberalism is not a school of economic thought. It's not an actual ideology that anyone associates themselves with. It's a word without any concrete meaning thrown around in order to avoid real discussion. The free market is not failing. Current markets that are failing are hardly "free." What is failing is a system of government regulation and control that supports wall street and the rich at the expense of the m…

You're blaming government regulations! That's absurd given many people at this point have said that the deregulation of the 90's on the financial sector is what lead to much of our housing financial crisis, not to mention the widening pay gap. Your comment might actually be a good representation of how Neoliberal ideas of deregulation will continue to flourish despite them hampering to middle and lower classes. Peopl…

I have encountered a few people who do argue that government regulation caused the economic crisis. It seems to be the dominant understanding in the conservative media in the United States, possibly elsewhere. The reasoning goes something like this: people in government wanted to redistribute wealth by building up impoverished minority communities, so they incentivized otherwise responsible banks to lend money to people who would not have qualified for loans and punished banks that did not meet certain minority quotas.

Banks responded to this pressure in the only way they could by giving out loans to minorities who then defaulted. Banks couldn't change the government initiatives, so they bundled bad loans with good to try to control the damage and save the economy, but too many minorities were irresponsible. The government then made the problem worse by adding even more regulation on banks, slowing the economic recovery and extending the recession.

I don't personally subscribe to this, but it does seem to have a lot of weight with a certain crowd. It's also used as an example of how minorities and government are the source of other problems in the country, so the only way we can solve the problem is through deregulation, giving more freedom to the financial industry, and ending any sort of affirmative action.

Re: The death of neoliberalism from within

#74

Post by dmfdmf » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

puranjay wrote: post #38

the thing about capitalism is that capitalism has no ideology, only the profit motive (nothing wrong with that) if tomorrow the capitalists of the world were to figure out that communism is more profitable and efficient for conducting business, they would change their ideology accordingly. capitalism can't die because capitalism is innate to human beings; it is infinitely adaptable and flexible

> the thing about capitalism is that capitalism has no ideology

I beg to differ.

What is capitalism? http://www.amazon.com/Capitalism-Ideal-Ayn-Rand/dp/045114795...

What is its ethical base? http://www.amazon.com/Virtue-Selfishness-Centennial-Ayn-Rand...

You may disagree but no one can say it has not been said.

Re: The death of neoliberalism from within

#75

Post by icebraining » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #62

wfo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is an explicit ideology that many associate themselves with (though not by name, since it's become something of a slur because it's so obviously religious about the "free market" and hated because of this). It's explained clearly in TFA. Of course, the classic rabid libertarian answer -- any time any economic failure happens, blame regulations. When we free the markets, and the markets fail to provide an…

A truly free market has a price for contract killings--including, for instance, the current CEO of Bank of America, or the current chairman of the Fed, or someone like Bernie Madoff. If the wealthy make a figurative "killing" abusing the poor, the poor turn around and make a literal killing. An unethical executive would have to hole up in a fortified compound and surround it with hired guns, just like a Mexican drug…

Even if we assume the extreme, almost cartoonish version of free market, in which every possible transaction is legal, that still doesn't mean the action itself has to be. So you could have a market for contract killings - but you'd still be imprisoned for actually killing.

Re: The death of neoliberalism from within

#76

Post by bubbleRefuge » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:49 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #60

wfo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is an explicit ideology that many associate themselves with (though not by name, since it's become something of a slur because it's so obviously religious about the "free market" and hated because of this). It's explained clearly in TFA. Of course, the classic rabid libertarian answer -- any time any economic failure happens, blame regulations. When we free the markets, and the markets fail to provide an…

Noam Chomsky, that rabid right-wing libertarian: What’s called the capitalist system is very far from any model of capitalism or market. Take the fossil fuels industries: there was a recent study by the IMF which tried to estimate the subsidy that energy corporations get from governments. The total was colossal. I think it was around $5 trillion annually. That’s got nothing to do with markets and capitalism. https://…

OMG. Very true. The hypocrisy is sickening and finally people are waking up to it. For example, look at Paul Ryan. Tea Party, no-liberal , yada, yada, yada comes from a privileged wealth family owning a construction business fed from government contracts.

Re: The death of neoliberalism from within

#77

Post by bubbleRefuge » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 6:01 PM UTC

ewzimm wrote: post #73

marricks wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're blaming government regulations! That's absurd given many people at this point have said that the deregulation of the 90's on the financial sector is what lead to much of our housing financial crisis, not to mention the widening pay gap. Your comment might actually be a good representation of how Neoliberal ideas of deregulation will continue to flourish despite them hampering to middle and lower classes. Peopl…

I have encountered a few people who do argue that government regulation caused the economic crisis. It seems to be the dominant understanding in the conservative media in the United States, possibly elsewhere. The reasoning goes something like this: people in government wanted to redistribute wealth by building up impoverished minority communities, so they incentivized otherwise responsible banks to lend money to peo…

You may answer them by stating the fact that bank management committed fraud by making loans based on false appraisals and false documentation provided by borrowers and then selling these "assets" (with the help of corrupt ratings agencies) to uninformed institutional level investors . As intermediaries banks profit from the transaction fees. This is fraud plain and simple.

The public at large doesn't understand the banking system and how it is funded. Banks fund loans by creating deposits out of thin air. They don't loan money from their depositors. Because of this, they must be and are carefully regulated.

Re: The death of neoliberalism from within

#78

Post by collyw » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 6:13 PM UTC

elgabogringo wrote: post #50

Bombthecat wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And removing the government would give the rich 100% control. So what would be a solution?

The government in this case isn't restraining the rich. It's protecting them.

Its enriching them even further.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/apr/26/recession-r...

Re: The death of neoliberalism from within

#79

Post by elgabogringo » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 6:28 PM UTC

clarkmoody wrote: post #69

elgabogringo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inequality isn't a red herring - not IMO. It's the natural outcome of our fed policies, which have existed largely to recapitalize banks. They've hampered growth (hitting the middle class) while causing asset inflation (and how owns assets? The rich.) So inequality is real, but not for the reasons most think.

Don't want to have a back-and-forth about inequality. But at it's most basic level, what does it matter to me if someone else has lots of money/wealth? As long as they can't buy off government officials either through lobbying or cash bribes, then I don't care. Also, large and growing inequality is usually a symptom of a more deeper issue in an economy. Pushing to "fix inequality" is just patching a symptom, and prop…

Agree 100%... Inequality is an issue in this case because it's coming at the expense of the middle class...

As you point out, current increases in inequality are symptoms of a bigger problem. The bigger problem (Govt debt, Fed money printing, and bank bailouts) needs to be addressed.

Trying to address inequality without tackling the root cause will do little - in most cases, since the "solutions" are more harmful govt/fed interventions, it will just make inequality worse.

Re: The death of neoliberalism from within

#80

Post by elgabogringo » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 6:29 PM UTC

bubbleRefuge wrote: post #76

icebraining wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Noam Chomsky, that rabid right-wing libertarian: What’s called the capitalist system is very far from any model of capitalism or market. Take the fossil fuels industries: there was a recent study by the IMF which tried to estimate the subsidy that energy corporations get from governments. The total was colossal. I think it was around $5 trillion annually. That’s got nothing to do with markets and capitalism. https://…

OMG. Very true. The hypocrisy is sickening and finally people are waking up to it. For example, look at Paul Ryan. Tea Party, no-liberal , yada, yada, yada comes from a privileged wealth family owning a construction business fed from government contracts.

Um... Paul Ryan != Tea party.