Salary Negotiation • Hacker News Board

Re: Salary Negotiation

#101

Post by brianwawok » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:35 PM UTC

Phlarp wrote: post #75

swombat wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumption doesn't bear out in practice, in my experience. There are plenty of people who believe that for-profit businesses can also achieve great, positive purposes in the world, and want to be a part of it. Cases in point: Tesla and SpaceX. They aren't charities. They are very purposeful.

Tesla and SpaceX are both massive exceptions to the rule, not examples of the norm. You are not Tesla or SpaceX.

And in fact if you want to write code that goes to space, you have 4 or 5 options top in the US? Vs many other business models (webapps for music) there may be 50 or 100.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#102

Post by green_lunch » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:35 PM UTC

tyre wrote: post #90

Two things we have done to fix the waste of time, human energy, and shenanigans around salaries: 1) Post salaries with job descriptions. (e.g. seneca.systems/careers/growth/go-to-market-strategist-product-marketer) 2) Pin salaries to job position[1]. We do not allow individuals to negotiate their salary separately from their position. If you have the same position, you make the same salary. [1]: https://github.com/Se…

"We do not allow individuals to negotiate their salary separately from their position. If you have the same position, you make the same salary."

This is great from a company perspective, but it essentially allows a company to get an employee at a much cheaper rate. Employees with more experience will get the same pay rate for the same job as someone with potentially much less.

Since all companies don't do this, I probably wouldn't ever work for your company knowing this is your policy. I bring much more value to a company with all of the experience and knowledge that I've gained.

At my last 9-5 job, I was able to get paid almost 20% more than many of my co-workers because of my negotiating skills and experience.

I just have to shake my head when I see so many people fighting for less power, rights, and inevitably less money and calling it a 'win'.

But, this doesn't really matter to me anymore. I've owned my own company for the last 5 years and don't need to negotiate my own salary.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#103

Post by paulddraper » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

dpweb wrote: post #99

swombat wrote: post #5

We're really trying to nail a good way to deal with salary negotiations when onboarding people, at GrantTree - one that gets out of this "gotcha" approach to salary. So far the best we've figured out is to be the first ones to name a number, and be super-transparent about how we arrived at that number. The reasoning is that "in a salary negotiation the first person to quote a number loses", so since we (as the employ…

Asking the salary question of a prospect is un-necessary, and doing it to find opportunities to low ball someone, it's game-playing - it's wrong. The company should know about how much that person is worth. Low balling really isn't necessary to live up to your management responsbilities on the company side of it. On the employee side, best to get out of the question as quick as possible. One thing to say is, I have o…

> The company should know about how much that person is worth.

If anything, a person would know even better how much they are "worth". E.g. they know the necessarily short interview wasn't accurate.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#104

Post by hyperpape » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

green_lunch wrote: post #102

tyre wrote: post #90

Two things we have done to fix the waste of time, human energy, and shenanigans around salaries: 1) Post salaries with job descriptions. (e.g. seneca.systems/careers/growth/go-to-market-strategist-product-marketer) 2) Pin salaries to job position[1]. We do not allow individuals to negotiate their salary separately from their position. If you have the same position, you make the same salary. [1]: https://github.com/Se…

"We do not allow individuals to negotiate their salary separately from their position. If you have the same position, you make the same salary." This is great from a company perspective, but it essentially allows a company to get an employee at a much cheaper rate. Employees with more experience will get the same pay rate for the same job as someone with potentially much less. Since all companies don't do this, I pro…

Don't companies that try that sort of thing usually have well defined bands? Software Engineer I, II, III, etc?

Re: Salary Negotiation

#105

Post by reitanqild » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

JamesBarney wrote: post #74

swombat wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see why paying people less would lead to an improvement in love, family, being a good person, respect, transparency, etc -- unless you're saying that due to pay difference vs market, you'll also expect less work out of them. There's definitely no necessary causal link here. We aim to pay enough that they won't leave because it's too little but not so much that they will stay just because of the salary is to…

I can't find the study, but a South American government(I forgot which country) had the same fears. They wanted better employees and they were afraid if they paid them too much they would get people primarily interested in the money and not the job. But they decided to try it anyway, and lo and behold they were surprised to find the higher played employees were not only better employees but also more motivated intrin…

Practical example: my current employer pays me the same in base salary as my previous employer paid me in base salary + duty + overtime. Oh, and they do it without ever telling me I ough to work more.

For me this translates to happily walking the extra mile. It also means my wife is ok with me working a bit extra here and there because I love my job. And it means a whole less paperwork and talk about overtime or not.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#106

Post by Mendenhall » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

It was always pretty simple for me personally, If you don't want to pay me what I want, you are free to hire someone else.

I find the most important part is being able to walk away, If you negotiate from a position of weakness or need you are behind already.

If I am hiring I know what I can afford to pay, what I think the position is "worth" and what I want out of it and make an offer according.

I like ideally to pay for work not for hours etc, if you give me what I want I don't care if I am paying you $3000 dollars and you worked a half hour and slept for a week out of town, I would consider that smart and efficient.

I find its the person who is applying that has the power not the company and I think that's an important lesson for people who are applying to learn. If "they" are not willing to pay me what I want, that puts us on a bad start already.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#107

Post by xviia » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:44 PM UTC

pyoung wrote: post #98

xviia wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without salary negotiation, the company gets to choose the price. Unfortunately, Silicon Valley has shown that it is willing to collude to keep that price down. Therefore, when companies argue that they're banning salary negotiation to "promote equality", you should assume that this equality is merely a gimmick to hide the true purpose: lower wages. If there really is a difference in negotiating ability between women…

Negotiations still take place, they just happen in a different format. For example if the Technical Lead is having trouble hiring due to low salaries for the positions, he would make the case to management that they need to raise the salary range for those positions. And the added benefit to this format (in a transparent organization) current employees would also get a raise which would probably help with attrition.…

In these cases, though, we're relying on the employer to institute those salaries. However, the employer usually does not have an incentive to pay more if they can get the same thing for cheaper.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#108

Post by RussianCow » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:44 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #56

swombat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither. We're a purposeful, for-profit, founder-owned[1] company. Just because we are for-profit doesn't mean profit is our only motivation. It's a false dichotomy to suggest that because you want to make money that must be your only driver. Our view of business is that, much like humans, it can achieve and balance multiple objectives. You want to make money: does that mean you want only that to the exclusion of or…

So why would I accept less money from you than my market rate, so that you, the founder, can make more money? At the end of the day there is 1 pie, why should I donate part of my pie to you?

Because the job is more interesting than the alternatives? Because there is room for major career growth? Because the work/life balance is better? There are tons of reasons it would be preferable to take a lower-paying job. Salary is by far not the only consideration (and for some, not even the most important one).

Re: Salary Negotiation

#109

Post by JoshDoody » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:45 PM UTC

ohjeez wrote: post #30

JoshDoody wrote: post #3

Hi everyone! That's me you hear talking to Patrick ;) If you have any questions about the episode or salary negotiation in general, ask away! As you can probably tell, I love talking about this stuff!

Most discussions about salary negotiation are about postponing the money discussion until we know there's a fit. But what do you do when you-as-applicant need to be sure you're not wasting your time (or theirs)? That is: I'm really senior in my field, with 25 years of experience, and for several years I've been commanding top dollar. (I'm worth it, too!) But often I start discussions with would-be employers (or clien…

Excellent question. I have lots of thoughts, so I'll try to summarize.

1. This is just the reality of negotiation: sometimes you'll find out you're pretty far apart when they finally make an offer. The value of your time matters, but in general I think the payoff when you DO command top dollar at a good company is worth the time investment. (Think of this from a Sales perspective - they deal with hundreds of leads, often narrowing them down to the best-qualified leads and closing only a few deals. That time working with unqualified leads is not wasted per se, it's an investment to get to the good leads where they make their money.) 2. Signaling is important and you should continuously do this throughout your interview and negotiation process. My one-sentence strategy summary for interviews is "You're telling them a story about how their company will be better if you're a part of it." Your job in the interview processes not to save time—it's to get the best job offer possible so you can negotiate or walk away if it's not a good fit.

I realize this is controversial, but I think it's best to not think of interviews that don't lead to job offers as time wasted, but as time invested in finding a good fit. If you're interviewing for a huge volume of jobs that always end with an offer far below your range, you may want to evaluate whether you're applying to the right jobs. But if you occasionally interview and find out that they can't met your pay requirements, you can just move on to the next opportunity.

One last thing: Make sure you're doing market research to determine the value of your skillset and experience in your industry. If your market research confirms your salary expectations, then keep interviewing. If it doesn't, then it's possible you're at a company that really values your work and you might consider the opportunity cost of leaving.

Does this help? If I can clarify anything, let me know!

Re: Salary Negotiation

#110

Post by 15155 » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:45 PM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #25

swombat wrote: post #5

We're really trying to nail a good way to deal with salary negotiations when onboarding people, at GrantTree - one that gets out of this "gotcha" approach to salary. So far the best we've figured out is to be the first ones to name a number, and be super-transparent about how we arrived at that number. The reasoning is that "in a salary negotiation the first person to quote a number loses", so since we (as the employ…

I've struggled with this a lot. I used to believe in making it a negotiation. The more I've seen, I've switched to paying for the position. Unless hard negotiation is part of the job description, it shouldn't be rewarded. I've also found that rewarding hard negotiators pushes companies down the path of paying men more than women for the same job. If you can't stay in business without underpaying a lot of people, your…

Take Buffer, for instance: their salary information is "transparent."

Consequently, since they've eliminated the possibility for negotiation, I will never approach them for prospective employment.

A "master" engineer taking low equity living/working in SF only makes ~$155k: no thanks.

https://buffer.com/salary?r=1&l=10&e=3&q=1

In my humble opinion: this kind of hiring strategy rewards low performers who get lucky and dissuades and marginalizes A-players who know what they are worth.