Welcome to Magenta – Google music AI project • Hacker News Board

Re: Welcome to Magenta – Google music AI project

#11

Post by zer00eyz » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:53 AM UTC

philhartmanonic wrote: post #8

zer00eyz wrote: post #4

This is interesting, but it feels a lot like a moonshot, and it isn't even groundbreaking. The approach may be novel but folks have been trying this for a while http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/music_box/2010/05/ill_be_... Can code generate a catchy pop tune? Im sure it can. Would I qualify it as music? Probably not. Music can pull from sources that are EXTERNAL to the music: Heres a modern track that does just suc…

I don't know about that. The whole idea of "having a soul" is so nebulous that it's hard to build a view on top of it. Do we have souls? If yes, is it possible to mechanically replicate a soul? If not, why not? What's a soul? If instead you define art as the communication of things that can't be fully expressed by direct sterile language, that's something I can get behind. Going that route, I think that getting AI to…

I agree that my "having a soul" comment is nebulous, but were into a pretty fuzzy territory as it is when it comes to "what is art", and thats especially true with music.

>If instead you define art as the communication of things that can't be fully expressed by direct sterile language

Reading this, the first thing I thought of was emotion, feeling! So much of that is wrapped up in who we are, in what we are, in our experiences, and in our limitations.

I like spitballing --- and the thought exercise follows:

Lets say tomorrow we have AI, real thinking machines, with the classic 3 laws of Asimov. Lets also assume we have a few of them. Because of what and who they are, is it possible that AI generates something that other AI's consider "art" but that we, as people, do not?

Re: Welcome to Magenta – Google music AI project

#12

Post by astazangasta » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:06 AM UTC

philhartmanonic wrote: post #8

zer00eyz wrote: post #4

This is interesting, but it feels a lot like a moonshot, and it isn't even groundbreaking. The approach may be novel but folks have been trying this for a while http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/music_box/2010/05/ill_be_... Can code generate a catchy pop tune? Im sure it can. Would I qualify it as music? Probably not. Music can pull from sources that are EXTERNAL to the music: Heres a modern track that does just suc…

I don't know about that. The whole idea of "having a soul" is so nebulous that it's hard to build a view on top of it. Do we have souls? If yes, is it possible to mechanically replicate a soul? If not, why not? What's a soul? If instead you define art as the communication of things that can't be fully expressed by direct sterile language, that's something I can get behind. Going that route, I think that getting AI to…

Easy. A "soul" is a collection of thoughts and narratives that define the core of your being, many of which are held in common with other human beings. I think this is a useful requirement for a soul, since this means that ensouled creatures must participate in a community of discourse/culture along with humans. If AI can't do this, it's worthless.

Re: Welcome to Magenta – Google music AI project

#13

Post by shams93 » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:22 AM UTC

The problem is the reliance on midi but it shouldnt be hard to build a credible house music generator even with midi byt relying in midi music data for training wont get you something that sounds like a jimi hendrix. But doing automated dance music makes sense.

Re: Welcome to Magenta – Google music AI project

#14

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:30 AM UTC

zitterbewegung wrote: post #5

If AI generated music works out and becomes popular will people actually optimize for quality of music or instead you would have an Engineering team design the next Pop star which would be optimizing for Profitability and marketability.

[deleted]

Re: Welcome to Magenta – Google music AI project

#15

Post by prawn » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:33 AM UTC

tunesmith wrote: post #10

There's music and then there's music. I'm glad they are at least thinking about long narrative structures. Ultimately I don't think this is a very worthwhile because I personally believe the entire definition of art and music is a production that is filtered through the human experience. The same piece of music would mean more to me coming from a human than from an AI or program. If someone told me it was from a huma…

At least leave us humans some of the joys in life - art being one of them. Automate the bland stuff so we have more time to idle away our days mucking around with an instrument or paints or clay.

Re: Welcome to Magenta – Google music AI project

#16

Post by julianpye » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:42 AM UTC

Keyboards have been popping out automatic C-maj, A-min, F-maj, G-maj progressions for fourty years now. And with the typical toolset for electronic music, it will be easily capable to create something similar.

But the masterpieces of music demand something altogether different. Beethoven's break with consistency by switching keys in the adagio of the 5th piano concerto. Wagner introducing the Tristan chord, Berg using C-major only as a joke in Lulu, when the word money is mentioned.

Add to that ingenuity the personal drama behind music. Bach's crisis of faith leading to 'What God does is well done' to Mahler losing so many of his children that he composed the Kindertotenlieder ("Songs on the Death of Children") to the origins of a simple pop song such as 'Tears in heaven' that moves people tremendously... Music is shaped by our biological life cycle, not by that of a computer program.

Re: Welcome to Magenta – Google music AI project

#17

Post by bch » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:49 AM UTC

astazangasta wrote: post #12

philhartmanonic wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about that. The whole idea of "having a soul" is so nebulous that it's hard to build a view on top of it. Do we have souls? If yes, is it possible to mechanically replicate a soul? If not, why not? What's a soul? If instead you define art as the communication of things that can't be fully expressed by direct sterile language, that's something I can get behind. Going that route, I think that getting AI to…

Easy. A "soul" is a collection of thoughts and narratives that define the core of your being, many of which are held in common with other human beings. I think this is a useful requirement for a soul, since this means that ensouled creatures must participate in a community of discourse/culture along with humans. If AI can't do this, it's worthless.

AI will "fake it till it makes it."

I'm listening to Boards of Canada and Aphex Twin right now. What about those can't be analyzed and recreated ? There's not complex bowing technique or lyrics to speak of, but it's still relatable, and some I'm sure would say soulful. BoC for certain (by their tone) evoke "nostalgia". Does that qualify as soulful ? Does it seem out of reach of algorithms ?

I think "soul" will have to be better qualified unless its just going to be tautological.

Re: Welcome to Magenta – Google music AI project

#18

Post by fizx » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:52 AM UTC

shams93 wrote: post #13

The problem is the reliance on midi but it shouldnt be hard to build a credible house music generator even with midi byt relying in midi music data for training wont get you something that sounds like a jimi hendrix. But doing automated dance music makes sense.

To be honest, learning waveforms for interesting tone or timbre sounds a hell of a lot easier than composing a symphony.

Re: Welcome to Magenta – Google music AI project

#19

Post by anilgulecha » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:56 AM UTC

julianpye wrote: post #16

Keyboards have been popping out automatic C-maj, A-min, F-maj, G-maj progressions for fourty years now. And with the typical toolset for electronic music, it will be easily capable to create something similar. But the masterpieces of music demand something altogether different. Beethoven's break with consistency by switching keys in the adagio of the 5th piano concerto. Wagner introducing the Tristan chord, Berg usin…

Not to take away from your point, but none of the above stop an AI from replicating that behavior. It's just a matter of the state-of-the-art catching up.

Re: Welcome to Magenta – Google music AI project

#20

Post by fizx » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 5:57 AM UTC

zer00eyz wrote: post #4

This is interesting, but it feels a lot like a moonshot, and it isn't even groundbreaking. The approach may be novel but folks have been trying this for a while http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/music_box/2010/05/ill_be_... Can code generate a catchy pop tune? Im sure it can. Would I qualify it as music? Probably not. Music can pull from sources that are EXTERNAL to the music: Heres a modern track that does just suc…

I'll always like that terrible Blurred Lines song because I had a really fun time dancing to it at a friends birthday party. I'm pretty sure Macbook is a better person than Robin Thicke.

Meaning in music can come from the creator or the listener.