Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers • Hacker News Board

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#191

Post by nostrebored » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:03 AM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #170

nostrebored wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually testosterone studies have shown that it increases aggression in men who have anger problems. Estrogen has been shown to have similar increases in aggression in women. Too lazy to find on mobile but I'll edit later. Boys are held to a lower standard of behavior than girls. "Boys will be boys" is a societal mantra. It's worth noting that these "inherent" traits vary across societies. For instance Italian cultu…

>Women being kinder is a sex trope not a neurological reality. But what did I freaking say? -.- I did specifically say it was a stereotype, to counter your point that differences between sex necessarily imply an idea of inferiority of women, and here you go lecturing me on how what I said is a false stereotype D:, well no shit. It's an absurd notion. Negative stereotypes go both ways. But that's not the point. The po…

When you close it with we have to be aware of the realities of behavioral difference between the sexes, your beliefs become ambiguous. A thorough restating of positions doesn't make the arguments less clear.

I have the preconceived notion that we cannot assume that there is a biological difference in cognition. You're right. I'm wary of it because people have been doing it for hundreds of years for equally inane reasons. My wife isn't missing 5 ounces of her brain, her brain isn't held together by more delicate strands, the shape of her brain relative to the skull doesn't make her more subservient. What you seem to miss is that this assumption is not rooted in any scientific reasoning -- in fact more and more neuroscience is coming to the conclusion that there are very few differences in brain structure. Catherine Dulac's research from Harvard has been getting close to this, and although I think her conclusions overstep the data that she has, it's very interesting to me. And you've missed my point. I do think that there is a difference in cognition between the sexes, but I do not think that there is a biological basis for this. Just like I don't think that there is a biological basis for the reason that black children score lower on standardized tests (and there is an easier study setup for this, which is excellent!). The thing is, the studies that they've done show pretty similar results between increasing either sexes primary sex hormone and the effects on cognition. There are very similar results when either sex has a hormone imbalance.

I do actually care to know if men are naturally predisposed to aggression. Here are the links to the studies refuting that testosterone causes increased aggression [0][1][2]. And again, I do care that boys are more hyperactive. I don't deny that it's happening, I think it's a problem, and I think that what we can do to fix it is increase discipline and develop healthy coping strategies.

I'm not rejecting the premise, I'm rejecting that there is an inherent flaw in boys that makes them violent, hyperactive rapists. I'm rejecting that there is an inherent flaw in women that makes them docile, logically incapable therapists.

The fact that this is controversial just blows my mind.

How do you feel about the cross cultural differences in expected behavior between the sexes?

[0] http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature08711 [1] http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/81/10/3578 [2] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W...

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#192

Post by BurningFrog » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:09 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #101

gshulegaard wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that the parent comment is assuming one way or another, just offering a plausible explanation given the very limited perspective of the metrics being quoted. For example, how does this compare to other trends for female jobs in other sectors? How do the figures compare when you separate the population between those with children and those without? When someone wants to make a claim like: "These numbers…

> I am a libertarian so ultimately I believe that everyone should be free to make their own decisions even if there are gender preferences at play. Not saying there aren't issues, but simply saying, "X is anti-women, because only Y% are female," is academically dishonest. It's not academically dishonest, it's the application of a reasonable epistomological presumption: we presume that observations are not caused by b…

we presume that observations are not caused by biological differences without concrete evidence of those differences. The corollary to that is that disparities in outcome are prima facie evidence of disparities in opportunity.

This is a textbook circular argument.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#193

Post by H0n3sty » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:10 AM UTC

zassmin wrote: post #2

It's an honor to be a part of YC S16! As an organization, we've been committed to making sure our members stay in tech and excel in the industry. We are excited to work with our Partners at YC and further enhance the Women Who Code experience. :)

Do you agree with the recent diversity and inclusion effort at github which noted that (6) some of the biggest barriers to progress are white women?

http://www.businessinsider.com/diversity-guru-discusses-whit...

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#194

Post by HarshTruth » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:10 AM UTC

throwaway293810 wrote: post #22

sandworm101 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should do all we can to support mothers and parents. They should be free to make their own choices. But nobody should be surprised if mothers make different choices than fathers. Nor should we force the matter. There is some biology here. Equality doesn't create interchangeability.

I'm arguing for equality of opportunity, not outcome. If the final split isn't 50/50, fine, as long as everyone is making free choices. The problem is that today that (equality of opportunity) is not the case -- there's immense pressure for the woman to be the one to stay home, if someone does.

The immense pressure is the women's own doing. Women largely prefer to partner with men who make more money than them, so naturally if one partner becomes a stay at home parent it makes more sense economically for it to be the woman.

If women don't like the pressure to be a stay at home parent, then women can start marrying men who make less money than them (men don't as a group place little value on their partner making more than them) and instead face the pressure of providing for their family.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#195

Post by parennoob » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:16 AM UTC

H0n3sty wrote: post #117

What would people think if the genders were reversed and this institution was discriminating against women and only helping men? Women have a far larger presence in other fields like biology and education, but you don't see new organizations popping up every other month to change that in favor of men. Discrimination like this should be illegal.

You have a point. From the article,

“One member, Erica Stanley, had a Masters in Computer Science but felt held back because she wasn’t confident in her skills as a public speaker. WWCode presented her with the opportunity to step up and lead WWCode Atlanta’s programs, including technical events and hackathons.”

I know this sounds a bit glib – but I'm aware of several men (including myself, an Asian person of color) with higher degrees who feel held back because of a lack of confidence as a public speaker. Where are our support groups and opportunities? (Seriously, if you have any, my email is in my profile).

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#196

Post by HarshTruth » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:19 AM UTC

dudifordMann wrote: post #10

larrik wrote: post #7

Women who are halfway into their careers in tech are leaving at a rate of 56%, which is more than double the quit rate of men. One reason for the high quit rate may be that women have a much lower chance of being promoted, even when they have the same amount of experience and tenure as their male peers, according to the National Bureau of Economic Research. So around the time a lot of people have kids? They probably…

I am not sure if that is the right mind set: "So around the time a lot of people have kids? ...you need to make a LOT of money to pay for daycare ... you might as well just stay home." The "you" can be the other partner. Ensuring fair pay and opportunities for all qualified workers would encourage only a brief departure from a woman's career for maternity leave, allowing either partner to be the home support (as need…

Ensuring fair pair wouldn't allow either partner to be the home support. Why? Because woman desire their partner to make more money than them.

Even if she makes the same salary as her peers she will statistically be married to a man who makes more money and so the economic pressure will be on her to be the stay at home partner.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#197

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:19 AM UTC

Pyxl101 wrote: post #190

nostrebored wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mobile/face study has not been reproduced. Researchers who tried again, making the study gender-blind (i.e. dressing the babies in gender neutral outfits and not looking at the names) found that there was no significant differences. [4] [3] is thoroughly conditioned into women [5]. Not only do people say that males are more visually intelligent, boys take part in more activities that develop spatial reasoning and…

The abstract of link [4] says the following: > Gender differences were found [] due to an increase in girls' gaze behavior. Girls also made more eye contact in female–female dyads and in the second interaction over the first. Boys' behavior remained unchanged over time. The data provide evidence for gender differences in mutual gaze in a younger sample and wider context than previously demonstrated. This seems to rei…

[deleted]

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#198

Post by BurningFrog » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:22 AM UTC

nostrebored wrote: post #89

gshulegaard wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have an interest in forwarding the notion that one gender is superior to the other in anyway shape or form. But neither are both genders identical . For example, the video I linked above, there is a brief observation made about how more female doctors drifted towards pediatrics than men. I don't think that says anything about the potential of either gender, but I would possibly describe it as a gender prefere…

>"But neither are both genders are identical." I'm going to take a step back and substitute gender for sex. Saying that the two sexes are not identical is a very interesting, and strong stance. Especially seeing as it is impossible to prove with socialization and neuroplasticity. I don't doubt that there are preferences based on gender. Gender is the word that we use to describe a set of sex-stereotypes that we proje…

Equating liking children with the suicidal urge to be killed and eaten is on the overdramatic side.

What's so "detrimental" about women's choices? Is becoming doctors and lawyers so much worse than becoming programmers?

Think about this: How do you know socialization is responsible for these differences, and not inherited personality and interest (average) differences?

What would be observably different in a world where our species worked that way?

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#199

Post by nostrebored » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:22 AM UTC

Pyxl101 wrote: post #190

nostrebored wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mobile/face study has not been reproduced. Researchers who tried again, making the study gender-blind (i.e. dressing the babies in gender neutral outfits and not looking at the names) found that there was no significant differences. [4] [3] is thoroughly conditioned into women [5]. Not only do people say that males are more visually intelligent, boys take part in more activities that develop spatial reasoning and…

The abstract of link [4] says the following: > Gender differences were found [] due to an increase in girls' gaze behavior. Girls also made more eye contact in female–female dyads and in the second interaction over the first. Boys' behavior remained unchanged over time. The data provide evidence for gender differences in mutual gaze in a younger sample and wider context than previously demonstrated. This seems to rei…

The abstract is phrased in the way that it's most sensationalist to the neuroscience community, unfortunately. The authors said that they found effects in a follow up study, but in the initial study that replicated [2] they found no significant results. Leeb and Rejskind's analysis suggests that the expectations of the experimenters influenced the study in the previous example.

The thing is, talk to girls -- they don't actually like to play with dolls. Many of them envied the lego sets and toy cars of their male peers.

I'm losing steam. I might flesh this out tomorrow. I've been arguing with people far less reasonable than you all day.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#200

Post by H0n3sty » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 4:28 AM UTC

parennoob wrote: post #195

H0n3sty wrote: post #117

What would people think if the genders were reversed and this institution was discriminating against women and only helping men? Women have a far larger presence in other fields like biology and education, but you don't see new organizations popping up every other month to change that in favor of men. Discrimination like this should be illegal.

You have a point. From the article, “One member, Erica Stanley, had a Masters in Computer Science but felt held back because she wasn’t confident in her skills as a public speaker. WWCode presented her with the opportunity to step up and lead WWCode Atlanta’s programs, including technical events and hackathons.” I know this sounds a bit glib – but I'm aware of several men (including myself, an Asian person of color)…

I spent a few years teaching math and I think that made public speaking rather easy for me. If you're looking for a supportive group to help improve your public speaking skills then I recommend you checkout your local toastmasters group. I've not attended myself, but I've heard from several members that it was life changing for them. Just like most every other group, they don't discriminate based on race or gender - so you should be very welcome.

If there's a technology you really like working with, then you might want to look on meetup.com to see if you can find some like minded people and look for an opportunity to present something. Some of the meetup.com groups discriminate based on gender or race, but the vast majority do not and are very welcoming :)