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Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

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Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#71
post #28

i have trouble accepting the idea that fewer women in tech is a problem. it's not that i want to discourage women -- or anyone -- from going into tech. i just don't believe in encouraging anyone to do anything in particular, except what they enjoy. i'd appreciate it if someone can persuade me that the hype is true so i no longer need to feel like a black sheep. but.. for one, the fact that there are fewer women than…

Also, should we really be pushing anyone into a field known for social isolation, long hours, depression and suicide without making a seriously strong effort to resolve those problems as well?

It might be harder to solve either problem in isolation than it is to solve both at the same time.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#72
post #7

Women who are halfway into their careers in tech are leaving at a rate of 56%, which is more than double the quit rate of men. One reason for the high quit rate may be that women have a much lower chance of being promoted, even when they have the same amount of experience and tenure as their male peers, according to the National Bureau of Economic Research. So around the time a lot of people have kids? They probably…

There are a variety of studies suggesting that "solid support for working moms" - in the form of paid leave, subsidized day care and the general Nordic experience - do not actually help much. http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/05/the... http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.... In fact, paid leave encourages women to be less attached to the workforce - as paid leave goes up, w…

[0] "One reason for the poor Nordic performance at higher corporate levels is high taxes, which limits the amount of household services supplied through markets. If it is harder to hire someone to do the chores, that makes it harder for women to invest the time to climb the career ladder."

This is just so goddamn laughable. Again we come back to the implication that women are the de-facto owners of housework.

[1] just shows that in countries where people tell children the meaningless platitude of "girls aren't any different than boys" without treating girls and boys differently there's no change. An increase in anxiety there makes perfect sense -- at least if I'm told I'm bad at something I don't have to stress out about why I'm inferior.

[2] Just like everyone reasonable has been saying for decades, paid leave for women isn't the only metric you should be looking at. Creating a disparity in paid leave for women and men again creates a default assumption of women as caregivers. It also determines workplace reentry. In this sense, rather than pushing for extended maternal leave in the U.S., we should be pushing for equal paternity leave.

[3] This is not a measure of getting women into computing, it's a proxy. Having been to the middle east I can tell you that college graduation rates are not a good metric to determine how many women are in the workforce. I'd say nearly half of the women (middle - upper middle class) had engineering degrees. Just about none of them had jobs, especially in rural areas. It's a piece of paper that increases your eligibility for marriage -- "look my wife has a CS degree, she's very smart, but she doesn't have to work".

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#73

I spend a lot of my time and personal money to encourage high school students to pursue a field in STEM (specifically robotics), however, lately I've been having trouble convincing myself to continue due to the long term prospects of a career in STEM. As a professional software engineer at a well known software company, I can only see it as a dead end job with low status and a small shelf life due to age discriminati…

I share your feeling. I am actively seeking of moving away from the tech field. I am still trying to figure out how to do that (maybe PT MBA will help not sure). My wife who is a software engineer will also exit the tech field in few years, so will my sister.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I've done this, let me tell you why: 1) People in tech are assholes to women. I don't think most of them realize they're doing it. Sending images of swimsuit models over slack or otherwise sexualizing your work environment is an awful idea, and you shouldn't do it even if you don't have women on your team. My partner gets asked out by coworkers regularly, even while pregnant. 2) No really, people in tech are assh…

I'm not at all saying that I don't believe you, but we're at the point where we need to leave anecdotes out of this and start gathering good data. As much as I've seen your examples, I've also seen all of the counter examples (except to point 3 because that's just how it is in the States). I spent the first few years of my working-life in female-dominated industries/workplaces and almost the entirety of my tech caree…

I didn't mention pay parity anywhere. The majority of pay disparity between men and women in the U.S. is due to job/field selection imo. The questions we have to ask are ones that determine why people choose certain fields, what social pressures are there, etc.

Which is why I agree that we need good data, but the best I can do is actually talking to women and seeing their problems, and they're remarkably similar.

That office romance bit might be different in a situation in which you have an equal number of male and female coworkers. But when you bring in a disparity of 5:1, asking out your coworkers, you're literally just having people being pestered all day.

And honestly, you're referring to a study that disseminates itself via an ad carousel with no methodology I can find. A survey of 2000 people with no published methodology is hardly reliable.

There's a reason you've never done it, and most women I talk to cringe at the idea.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We especially shouldn't be surprised if mothers make different decisions with fathers when society judges them, parenting books fearmonger, and parental leave is extremely disparate. Why don't we set aside the biological differences (all of which we have the means to offset) and tackle the most obvious problems first.

>> Why don't we set aside the biological differences. Because short of growing our young in labs, biology is the one thing that cannot be removed from the equation.

That's completely ludicrous. There are breast pumps, there is formula, there is no compelling reason that a mother has to stay at home. The question becomes is this a biological imperative or a social imperative, and until we remove the social portion it's too confounded to tell. Why do we also assume that men have no "overwhelming paternal instinct?"

The answer is that we have an ideology strongly rooted in the past and justified by the ridiculousness that is modern evo-psych.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#76
post #60
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it quite interesting that a similar number of 50% of men who enter the teacher profession also leaves while the number for women is about half. In stark contrast however, the quote text, the theory on why men drops out of female dominated professions share nothing in common with the theories on why women leave male dominated. In a 2009 report by the Swedish national agency, they argue that the reason why peopl…

In Ontario, male teachers are not allowed to take children to the washroom, even if the child is a boy. This is a problem because if a child with a disability needs to use the washroom, he needs to wait until a female staff member is available. I understand why men would drop out of the school system. Before you even start, you're already considered a predator.

[deleted]

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#77
post #48
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you know that breastfeeding pumps and refrigeration had been invented and refined over the last century?

Also, we raised an entire generation of Americans on bottles (75% of children born in 1971 were never breastfed, even in the hospital) and everyone turned it fine.

"Turned out fine" is highly subjective. The peak violence rates in the US happened when that cohort was 22; right around the age at which people commit the most violent crimes. So at least on that one metric, that cohort was probably among the worst ever (I'm not claiming a relationship to breastfeeding, of course).

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#78
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you need to make a LOT of money to pay for daycare per kid That's true. But as it happens, engineers do make a lot of money. Many of us even make enough to support one-income families. You can't just assume senior engineers leave tech because of childcare costs, when most of us make well over the amount where you "might as well just stay home."

I don't think that the parent comment is assuming one way or another, just offering a plausible explanation given the very limited perspective of the metrics being quoted. For example, how does this compare to other trends for female jobs in other sectors? How do the figures compare when you separate the population between those with children and those without? When someone wants to make a claim like: "These numbers…

And to say that people are making their decisions in a vacuum is intellectually dishonest. Unless of course you just assume that women have different brains, that make them too intellectually feeble to have interests in computing, engineering, machinery.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Why don't we set aside the biological differences. Because short of growing our young in labs, biology is the one thing that cannot be removed from the equation.

That's completely ludicrous. There are breast pumps, there is formula, there is no compelling reason that a mother has to stay at home. The question becomes is this a biological imperative or a social imperative, and until we remove the social portion it's too confounded to tell. Why do we also assume that men have no "overwhelming paternal instinct?" The answer is that we have an ideology strongly rooted in the past…

Not the biology I meant. I meant the fact that someone just hauled around a baby inside themselves for nine months, with all that entails. Breast pumps cannot change the fact that women and men may have different views.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#80
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you need to make a LOT of money to pay for daycare per kid That's true. But as it happens, engineers do make a lot of money. Many of us even make enough to support one-income families. You can't just assume senior engineers leave tech because of childcare costs, when most of us make well over the amount where you "might as well just stay home."

I don't think that the parent comment is assuming one way or another, just offering a plausible explanation given the very limited perspective of the metrics being quoted. For example, how does this compare to other trends for female jobs in other sectors? How do the figures compare when you separate the population between those with children and those without? When someone wants to make a claim like: "These numbers…

TFA isn't a position piece intended to argue the point. It was saying, "hey, this is a problem, here are two numbers indicating the scope of the problem, and here are some people who are working on it." Not "This is a problem, and here are statistics to prove it to skeptics." The data on why women leave tech is out there if you're genuinely interested.
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