Live data from Hacker News

Fans of Second Life Hope to Bring VR Back to the Classroom

chronicle.com

31–40 of 49 posts

Re: Fans of Second Life Hope to Bring VR Back to the Classroom

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical that closed source is what's actually holding SL back. I think splintering it into lots of shards would actually hurt something like this, which is closer to a social network. Once you shard it out, you get even further from critical mass, lots of desolate servers with nothing going on and inconsistent rules/user experiences

Rather than sharding, consider federation. Anyone should be able to run a server and allow "doorways" or other access points to other servers, hyperlinks. I recall, circa 2000, a project that I can't name at the moment that I toyed with in college that had this concept. You could host your own area and connect it to other areas hosted by other people. The name "Metaverse" is in my head, but googling it (quick search,…

Active Worlds?

Re: Fans of Second Life Hope to Bring VR Back to the Classroom

#33
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather than sharding, consider federation. Anyone should be able to run a server and allow "doorways" or other access points to other servers, hyperlinks. I recall, circa 2000, a project that I can't name at the moment that I toyed with in college that had this concept. You could host your own area and connect it to other areas hosted by other people. The name "Metaverse" is in my head, but googling it (quick search,…

Active Worlds?

Possible. Saw that on Wikipedia just now. 16 years, apparently my memory isn't strong enough to recall back far enough.

Re: Fans of Second Life Hope to Bring VR Back to the Classroom

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear "Virtual Conferences" as a big VR application. But how about we solve videoconferences first? Skype/Hangouts etc. hasn't improved noticeably in the last ten years. Videocalls still suffer from latency and poor image quality.

really? I frequently video conference to places will 11 hour time differences, and I am constantly amazed how well it works. I am pretty sure 10 years ago this wasn't practical.

I did a Hangout a few weeks ago from Europe to a startup in TX. At least on my end I was on a 1Gbps fat academic ISP; can't speak for the other guy, but he was in his office. Still, voice and video quality was poor and we had to restart everything once.

Also have had many poor quality video conferences on Lync/Skype for Business where all participants have been on the same fat academic ISP.

Re: Fans of Second Life Hope to Bring VR Back to the Classroom

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

really? I frequently video conference to places will 11 hour time differences, and I am constantly amazed how well it works. I am pretty sure 10 years ago this wasn't practical.

It definitely wasn't. I worked at a web conferencing company in 2007 and my sense was that video conferencing was limited to big entities with deep pockets and dedicated setups. Now anybody can do it and it works pretty well. It would be nice to get from "pretty well" to "so close to perfect that everyone forgets this was ever a hard thing", and it does seem like progress has been a bit slow on that front, but it see…

I remember skyping my girlfriend over shitty satellite internet from an island off Brazil in 2009, on an Atom-powered netbook running Linux. It worked (barely), but on regular internet it was not worse than the low end quality of today.

Re: Fans of Second Life Hope to Bring VR Back to the Classroom

#36
I know this is anecdote and a single data point, but I find it interesting nonetheless.

My mom, 60+ year old, decided she wanted to learn proper English. Being an aircraft controller, she already knew enough to get by on the job (communication is pretty much standardized). But nowhere near enough to get by in the US.

After a few conventional approaches (such as physical English classes), she somehow found out about Second Life and enrolled in a (paid!) course.

Fast forward a couple of years. She can now hold conversations in English and go out by herself without a family member translating. As an observer, the progress was outstanding.

One thing that I have noticed is that it can be way more interactive than "normal" classes. For instance, there was a lesson that took place at an airport. So, instead of just an opening dialog in a book, and then some discussion, their avatars were at a functioning airport. So they could go all the way from arriving at the airport to boarding the plane, having dialogue all the way. Not sure if the airplane did or could take off though.

At another one that I witnessed, they were at a clothing store. So they could actually interact with a human shopkeeper, buy the article of clothing they wanted, then put on their avatar.

Having attended "standard" classes all my life, I was blown away by how much the virtual environment would foster dialogue. Usually, a teacher has a hard time coaxing this kind of interaction in a classroom setting.

Also of importance is that, since you are hidden behind an avatar, shy people seem more comfortable. Things such as race and, to an extent, age, are completely hidden.

Not sure if VR would help anything, except for the "cool" factor, which can't be discounted.

Re: Fans of Second Life Hope to Bring VR Back to the Classroom

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical that closed source is what's actually holding SL back. I think splintering it into lots of shards would actually hurt something like this, which is closer to a social network. Once you shard it out, you get even further from critical mass, lots of desolate servers with nothing going on and inconsistent rules/user experiences

Rather than sharding, consider federation. Anyone should be able to run a server and allow "doorways" or other access points to other servers, hyperlinks. I recall, circa 2000, a project that I can't name at the moment that I toyed with in college that had this concept. You could host your own area and connect it to other areas hosted by other people. The name "Metaverse" is in my head, but googling it (quick search,…

> Rather than sharding, consider federation. Anyone should be able to run a server and allow "doorways" or other access points to other servers, hyperlinks.

> You could host your own area and connect it to other areas hosted by other people.

Sounds like Croquet/OpenCobalt/Qwaq/Teleplace/Terf (hooray for forks!). Different spaces can be hosted by anyone, like Web pages, and the hyperlink equivalent is a 'portal' which you can step through to go from one "world" to another.

As far as I understand it, the client processes the world via a stream of events, which a p2p protocol tries to keep consistent between all of the clients (e.g. user avatars) inhabiting a world. Going through a 'portal' switches your client to the another "world", and hence another event stream, so there's no central authority.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Cobalt for example.

Edit: It seems to be p2p, rather than server-based, according to:

> The Open Cobalt application leverages peer-based messaging to eliminate the need for virtual world servers/commercial services and makes it very simple for end-users to create and securely share deeply collaborative virtual worlds that run on all major software operating systems.

Re: Fans of Second Life Hope to Bring VR Back to the Classroom

#38
post #4

Just because something is in 3D doesn't make it automatically better -- often times it's worse as you now have artificial constraints that you didn't have before. For example, it's far easier to scroll through Instagram with your fingers (a UI win) and have every photo at 100% scale than to glide through a 3d representation where much more work has to be done. Certainly you wouldn't want the world to scroll you in VR…

I think this is the underlying cause for many of the failed projects from the 'Second Life bubble'. Many human activities, especially those related to information intake and processing have a long history of being 2D. From clay tablets to paper books, from the first photograph to 4K television, virtually all of the information designed for human consumption has been 2D. Only an incredibly small percentage is in 3D and even less is designed to be consumed in 3D (e.g. video games are often 3D internally but are designed for 2D consumption). This might or might not change in the future but if it does it will be changing neither soon nor rapidly.

Yes, one can use 2D interfaces inside 3D worlds but any 3D system short of the matrix will have a noticeable quality degradation (e.g. visual fidelity, haptic feedback, fatigue, etc) compared to directly using a 2D interface in real life. A few edge cases might become feasible much sooner, e.g. using VR to emulate large screens but that's hardly 'Virtual Reality'. Until we come up with meaningful ways to represent more kinds of information in 3D and/or create a matrix-style experience, VR will most likely be limited to applications that are inherently 3D.

This obviously includes entertainment (VR games, 'movies', 3D art) and CAD/CAM/3D modelling which are already very much 3D in nature and internal representation, even if they are currently usually projected onto 2D screens. Outside of that, the main 'educational' usage currently consists of building 3D environments (labs, buildings, factories, complex machinery) that emulate real-life environments in order to familiarize trainees with the workflows in those places. This can be surprisingly effective, especially considering how much cheaper VR mockups are compared to e.g. NASA's real-life 1:1 ISS training replica.

These applications are worthwhile in their own right and they will probably be able to sustain a decent market for VR hardware and development. However, I'm personally much more interested in seeing what kind of concepts that aren't already inherently 3D can be enhanced or revolutionized by adding another dimension.

Re: Fans of Second Life Hope to Bring VR Back to the Classroom

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried this? I've done a couple of 3d museums in the oculus & cardboard and it's a terrible experience. Scanning small images is not an improved experience over existing feeds on mobile phones, especially for something where you end up only looking at a photo you like for 0.4-2 seconds anyway.

If the content is 2d, I imagine a 2d interface is the right way to view it. Real paintings aren't 2d, though - Even modern fully-computerized paintings are actually 3d planar constructs, because artists use many layers in their construction, though that's often not exposed. Real paintings have brushstrokes, bumps, texture and depth. Even the most high-res scans of paintings utterly fail to capture that. The Met has a…

I feel like it's missing a lot of the point of museums. It's like asking why go to Japan when you can just virtual walk around Tokyo? Experience is far more than just tricking yourself visually, and it's more than just being able to look at brush strokes up close in 3D.

Instead of reproducing existing things poorly that you seldom want to do anyway, VR should be about doing things that are either impossible in real life or are compelling enough even if done in a non-realistic form.

Re: Fans of Second Life Hope to Bring VR Back to the Classroom

#40

I know this is anecdote and a single data point, but I find it interesting nonetheless. My mom, 60+ year old, decided she wanted to learn proper English. Being an aircraft controller, she already knew enough to get by on the job (communication is pretty much standardized). But nowhere near enough to get by in the US. After a few conventional approaches (such as physical English classes), she somehow found out about S…

The ability to cheaply simulate environments is at the core of many VR education/training concepts. I hadn't heard of it being applied to language education, that's really interesting!

Second Life specifically excels at being a platform for roleplaying (in the educational sense as well as the D&D sense). The built-in creation tools allow people to very quickly create environments that have enough fidelity to be a significant step up from 'this table is now an airplane' and thanks to the marketplace one can often quickly and cheaply acquire ready-made props for virtually any scenario. Using the more advanced creation tools one can even create video-game-level fidelity however that is usually not necessary for educational environments.

Post reply on HN