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Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

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Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#61

Post by nck4222 »

busterarm wrote: post #42
nck4222 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>i just don't believe in encouraging anyone to do anything in particular, except what they enjoy. There are plenty of women who would enjoy being a developer but it wasn't presented to them as a realistic option in their childhood, or it wasn't a welcoming atmosphere for them when they started learning about it.

You could swap the gender and career with just about any field in either end of this list[0] and have the same argument, but there is a razor focus on this one specific field/gender combination. [0]: https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/chal...

You could, but I'm not sure how that's relevant to this discussion. Other fields have a similar problem, and are either unaware or don't consider it a problem.

I consider it a problem in the software/tech industry regardless of whether other professions do.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#62

Post by sandworm101 »

nostrebored wrote: post #57
sandworm101 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should do all we can to support mothers and parents. They should be free to make their own choices. But nobody should be surprised if mothers make different choices than fathers. Nor should we force the matter. There is some biology here. Equality doesn't create interchangeability.

We especially shouldn't be surprised if mothers make different decisions with fathers when society judges them, parenting books fearmonger, and parental leave is extremely disparate. Why don't we set aside the biological differences (all of which we have the means to offset) and tackle the most obvious problems first.

>> Why don't we set aside the biological differences.

Because short of growing our young in labs, biology is the one thing that cannot be removed from the equation.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#63

Post by [deleted] »

sandworm101 wrote: post #25
throwaway293810 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm arguing for equality of opportunity, not outcome. If the final split isn't 50/50, fine, as long as everyone is making free choices. The problem is that today that (equality of opportunity) is not the case -- there's immense pressure for the woman to be the one to stay home, if someone does.

But "free choices" is a tricky thing. Many would say that so long as 50/50 isn't reached, for whatever reason known or unknown, the choice is not free.

[deleted]

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#64

Post by saiya-jin »

is it really true that women don't get promoted in engineering as much? that's a honest question, the only few I've met did not aspire for higher and higher positions intensively, rather enjoyed what they were doing (that could be said about most of the guys too).

I am all for equal situations for both genders, but my assumption was that we already +-have it in western societies, thus such a move would make guys actually in a disadvantage and thus be unfair.

IT is not a very cool job to non/tech people outside few top companies like facebook or google, somewhere along accountants maybe. naturally, more ambitious ones will go for jobs like lawyers (if they have no heart :)) or medicine as my fiancee did. IT is just not that sexi.

another point - if you are in your 40s, it's hard to be just developer. people move up to architecture or management, which I consider both boring as hell - endless conf calls, producing never-ending stream of powerpoints etc. not exactly why creative people came into IT in first place.

I admit other branches of engineering might look differently, no clue about it.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#65

Post by TeMPOraL »

busterarm wrote: post #23
belorn wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it quite interesting that a similar number of 50% of men who enter the teacher profession also leaves while the number for women is about half. In stark contrast however, the quote text, the theory on why men drops out of female dominated professions share nothing in common with the theories on why women leave male dominated. In a 2009 report by the Swedish national agency, they argue that the reason why peopl…

Anecdotal, but my cousin was a primary school teacher and faced an incredible amount of hostility because of his gender from parents and colleagues and left for construction after 2 years.

Westerners seem to have a serious distrust in men when it comes to young children. A woman talking to kids in a park is most obviously a mom. A man talking to kids in a park is most obviously a paedophile.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#66

Post by sp332 »

saiya-jin wrote: post #64

is it really true that women don't get promoted in engineering as much? that's a honest question, the only few I've met did not aspire for higher and higher positions intensively, rather enjoyed what they were doing (that could be said about most of the guys too). I am all for equal situations for both genders, but my assumption was that we already +-have it in western societies, thus such a move would make guys actu…

http://i.imgur.com/reUNxYu.png Definitely something odd going on in computer science.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#67

Post by sev »

emiliobumachar wrote: post #47
grahamburger wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, of course. But there are biological reason why all else being equal, having mom stay home might work better than dad. (Breastfeeding, mainly) Also as a dad I fully agree with your other point - I want to spend time with my kids as well, and I bristle at the suggestion that my kids are my wife's 'problem.' I love my kids, and if I had the means I would spend all of my time with them. But considering the…

There are biological reasons favoring dad as well. As the father of a toddler, I count physical strength as a huge asset. Example use case is carrying my sleeping infant holding with a single arm while the other hand unlocks the door.

> Example use case is carrying my sleeping infant holding with a single arm while the other hand unlocks the door

I think you are underestimating the strength (as well as form) women are born with, specifically for this reason. Most women I've seen carrying children on their hips with one arm behind their backs look much more comfortable than when a man does the same thing.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#68

Post by busterarm »

nck4222 wrote: post #61
busterarm wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could swap the gender and career with just about any field in either end of this list[0] and have the same argument, but there is a razor focus on this one specific field/gender combination. [0]: https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/chal...

You could, but I'm not sure how that's relevant to this discussion. Other fields have a similar problem, and are either unaware or don't consider it a problem. I consider it a problem in the software/tech industry regardless of whether other professions do.

It's a reference to the GP's suggestion that maybe this isn't the correct problem to solve.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#69

Post by sev »

lukeschlather wrote: post #50
jfe wrote: post #28

i have trouble accepting the idea that fewer women in tech is a problem. it's not that i want to discourage women -- or anyone -- from going into tech. i just don't believe in encouraging anyone to do anything in particular, except what they enjoy. i'd appreciate it if someone can persuade me that the hype is true so i no longer need to feel like a black sheep. but.. for one, the fact that there are fewer women than…

> for one, the fact that there are fewer women than men in any field, computing or otherwise, is neither good nor bad. the disproportionate number of women in nursing is not seen as a problem, but somehow it has become one in tech. I don't agree. I think the gender disparity in nursing is just as much a problem. I think it's a significantly less tractable problem though, because I don't think the monetary incentives…

I agree with both of you, in some regards. But just thinking about it...maybe it's okay to have an uphill battle to get into a field that's prized. "Natural selection" of sorts...or survival of the fittest, etc. The field being dominated by males at this moment, might simply be a temporal problem that will automatically change in time without much specific effort.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#70

Post by throwaway293810 »

xenihn wrote: post #43
throwaway293810 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's cultural, undoubtedly. Many couples just do it that way because that's "how it's done" without really thinking about it. But as far as I've seen/heard there is also significant social cost to stay-at-home dads. They're alternately demonized, ignored, assumed incompetent, assumed less worthy for not financially supporting the family, or just not accommodated in a thousand other ways. That's what we (society…

>Many couples just do it that way because that's "how it's done" without really thinking about it My hunch is that you don't actually know any women in tech who have decided to take a leave from their careers (either temporarily or permanently) in order to raise their children, and your handle + the fact that you just made that account makes me think you're a troll. Many (most?) mothers suffer if they can't be around…

Well, no, I don't think it's a burden and a sacrifice to take care of kids. From what I hear it's one of the most rewarding things in life, and I look forward to it (I'm in my late 20s and am thinking about having kids ten or so years from now). This is more in the context of career breaks, i.e., the current HN thread - in that context, taking time off a career is a burden.

I actually do know a few couples who've had long discussions about staying home. "Not really thinking about it" is a bit harsh, I admit, and I'll back off a bit there; but certainly the cultural bias leads to a default assumption, which people seem not to notice sometimes, i.e., the discussion framed as whether the mother should stay home, not who should stay home. For the couples I'm aware of, the father continuing to work was not in question.

I do think your implication that mothers may care more about kids than fathers do ("that's not to say that fathers don't either, but who do you think wins...") is a little disappointing. It's part of the cultural bias that I am trying to fight against here.

And finally, please don't call me a troll just because I have different ideas and opinions than you do. I'm trying to have a good-faith conversation and I care a lot about this issue. (Yes, I'm using a throwaway because any sort of gender politics discussion is politically dangerous. I hope my points are not dismissed as a result.)

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