Live data from Hacker News

Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

reuters.com

231–240 of 383 posts

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#231
post #77
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am also somewhat uncomfortable that his sponsorship was kept secret for so long, and that it easily could have stayed secret indefinitely.

It's very likely that this was an intentional leak to send a message to other media outlets that they should think twice before attacking billionaires. Nothing to stop the Koch brothers from doing this.

I thought he himself came out with this? I think even "intentional leak" is taking it a bit too far.

The goal here seems to be to make sure that Gawker won't be able to secure funding for further litigation which it'll lose anyway.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does that matter?

because then we would be more ignorant of how the world was operating. (Clearly you care or you wouldn't have wound up in this thread.)

One would have to be particularly ignorant for this to come as a surprise though. (Not specifically re: Gawker, but in general)

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#233
post #17

> Litigation finance is typically a business venture. It doesn’t become charity because a wealthy person uses it as a template for a personal crusade and then insists he’s doing everyone else a favor. Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. A lot of good work has been done by groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Why should individuals or g…

The subject of the case is a red herring. Typically in these situations, a settlement is reached or insurance covers the damages. That didn't happen. Thiel had an axe to grind against Gawker, invested $10m in the litigation, and pushed the case past settlement offers - even removing a claim that allowed insurance to cover damages. It focused on maximizing the damage to Gawker, which isn't what civil court is typicall…

> The subject of the case is a red herring.

Agreed. It matters to Terry, but doesn't explain what's happening now.

> Thiel was out for blood, and he used his money in someone else's case to get it.

Correct. The 'Thielite' side I'm on doesn't dissent from this.

> It focused on maximizing the damage to Gawker, which isn't what civil court is typically supposed to do.

Not so sure about that. I think you may be extending your ideas about civil lawsuits over the edge. I've never heard it said before now that one of a civil court's functions was to maximize the settlement. Presumably civil courts existed without insurance companies being around at some point, so maybe not.

I'm open to having my mind changed though, should you find evidence in law of a civil court's function being described in that way.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does that matter?

because then we would be more ignorant of how the world was operating. (Clearly you care or you wouldn't have wound up in this thread.)

That's not the ignorance that interests me here. There have been gag rules and confidentiality clauses in settlements forever. Secrecy in lawsuits isn't super unusual. You have any idea how many deals are made before a lawsuit is even filed? it's all secret... The EFF, ACLU, ADL, and other organizations fund legal defense and law suits and even use it as a fund raiser sometimes and we don't comb through the donation rosters and suggest a perversion of justice based on the sources of donations. There are legal defense funds for various things quite regularly. There are victim funds that are put together by communities when certain crimes happen, those funds are presented as just life help for the victims but some of that money goes to lawyers sometimes. It's just not that unusual for people to get help paying for their lawyers. And it has nothing to do with the crime.

Since Thiel revealed his involvement, that has been the story which makes me think maybe he was right to conceal it. his name and money had nothing to do with this crime.

The fact is some people want other people to fail, they want their companies to fail, it may be rational or it may be irrational or it may be revenge based but society allows that. You can short a stock if you want, if you have enough money you can even affect the price of the stock. Gawker placed itself in a situation where it had substantial financial risk, Thiel simply exploited it. Don't make powerful enemies, don't break laws, this is avoidable stuff. It wasn't a frivolous lawsuit that some billionaire manipulated in to a company killer. Nobody's taken out tmz or drudge or many of the others....

It's also ironic, I'd argue that any deal to pay for lawyers is a private matter. The very existence of that privacy is a concept gawker doesn't seem to comprehend and that's what caused their problem in the first place.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if so, I'd rather move beyond the Ad hominem.

Pointing out that a source is likely not impartial because they are a professional PR specialist is hardly an ad hominem. From the author's page: "Keith uses the power of strategic communications along with his experience as a lawyer and company co-founder to secure maximum leverage for his clients. His individual and team recognitions include the PR News Award for Outstanding Media Exposure (Business Development); T…

Ad hominem is when "an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself." [1]. This clearly seems to fit. Ad hominem is not always a fallacy: if there were some new facts presented, or if the argument was so complicated that you couldn't evaluate its validity yourself (like happens often in science and other technical fields), then the source of the argument would be relevant. Neither of those is true in this case. The article's argument isn't very convincing to me on its own merits, but I don't see how it's made worse by the fact that the author may have been paid to write it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#236
post #17

> Litigation finance is typically a business venture. It doesn’t become charity because a wealthy person uses it as a template for a personal crusade and then insists he’s doing everyone else a favor. Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. A lot of good work has been done by groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Why should individuals or g…

The media sees Silicon Valley as a competitor. A natural enemy. The Valley after all deals with distribution of information on a massive scale. Traditionally this was a position held by either the Government or the Media. The state is still in the game for the usual reason of having access to unparalleled force on demand. The media on the other side has been much diminished by the Net, which is not what you'd expect…

Hi, have you read http://degree180.com/8686-2/ ?

Founder of a business for identifying cyber-bullies threatened by one "Zoe Quinn" that continuation of their campaign would result in harassment..

According to the author, no complaints were received prior to this threat. After this threat, user complaints resulted in killing their kickstarter.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#237

(Not taking sides or condemning/supporting Thiel) Publications destroy people all the time - at least tabloids here in Germany. Most of those people have no money and can't sue. Journalism is fine when the 800pound Gorilla is on their side. Now once a person aims to destroy the magazine, journalists with pitchforks claim the end is near (aka censorship). At least this is how it looks from the sideline.

Ever heard the phrase "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes"? Hard to feel sympathy for tabloid writers feeling unfairly targeted.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#238

Extremely wealthy people are just like any other group of people in that they come in all shapes and sizes. Here, one very wealthy individual used his money to fund someone else's lawsuit. He did so secretly. He did so against an organization that had harmed him and against which he presumably wanted payback but that also had done a gratuitously damaging and sleazy act as part of a pattern of sleazy acts upon which i…

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it's hopelessly naive. It takes time for people who have been suddenly vaulted into the position of being the ruling class to realize that they are regarded as such.

Silicon Valley as a culture still sees itself as a scrappy underdog. They see startups as small underfunded rebels trying to disrupt rich and powerful corporate interests. They see themselves as unstylish and unpopular "geeks" outside the social power of the attractive and successful. Silicon Valley doesn't perceive itself as a center of wealth, power, and social control. But the rest of the world has no trouble whatsoever figuring it out, and they are scared of this power.

As they should be. Concentrations of wealth and power without accountability are dangerous.

The meta-discussion around Peter Thiel and Gawker is fundamentally about power and who wields it in society. When you see someone on your playground who is clearly far stronger than a normal person walk over and punch someone in the face with no accountability and no real ability to seek redress you don't actually care much what the person did to deserve it. You suddenly start getting very nervous about who he's going to punch in the face next, as you're keenly aware that it's not you who gets to decide.

This backlash is going to get louder not softer. The "Who me? What are you talking about we're all just private ordinary citizens pay us no mind" type arguments like this one I am replying to are not going to help.

Stanford has the number one business school in the country. Apple, Google, and Microsoft are the top three most valuable companies in the world. Peter Thiel has almost three billion dollars.

To an outsider watching this movie, the tech sector isn't Hoth, it's the Death Star.

Extremely wealthy people are not at all like any other group of people. They are far, far, more powerful.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#239

Extremely wealthy people are just like any other group of people in that they come in all shapes and sizes. Here, one very wealthy individual used his money to fund someone else's lawsuit. He did so secretly. He did so against an organization that had harmed him and against which he presumably wanted payback but that also had done a gratuitously damaging and sleazy act as part of a pattern of sleazy acts upon which i…

I largely agree with your overall point (that you can't overgeneralize), but I don't think this says "nothing." The fact of the matter is that billionaires wield a lot of power, and a lot of people trust billionaires to consistently behave more rationally and more cautiously than an average person.

Personally I think it's scary that any of these giants will weaponize the legal system and use their disproportionate power in an act of bitterness. And it raises the question how often this type of thing happens but doesn't get reported, moreso because these individuals are uniquely positioned to influence what gets published.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#240

Extremely wealthy people are just like any other group of people in that they come in all shapes and sizes. Here, one very wealthy individual used his money to fund someone else's lawsuit. He did so secretly. He did so against an organization that had harmed him and against which he presumably wanted payback but that also had done a gratuitously damaging and sleazy act as part of a pattern of sleazy acts upon which i…

Actually, the main point of the article was not really that Thiel had done something wrong. The point was that, given the average person's (not tech nerds, mind you) understanding of silicon valley's utopian dreams, the revelation of Thiel's secrecy is not going to look good. It's a matter of public opinion, whether or not that's fair. I agree, actually. I think big tech would be wise to put its money where its mouth…

> The point was that, given the average person's (not tech nerds, mind you) understanding of silicon valley's utopian dreams, the revelation of Thiel's secrecy is not going to look good.

Believe me, the average person doesn't know jack shit about our utopian ideals. The idea they have even heard of them in passing is probably a Silicon Valley conceit.

Do a vox pop on the streets of a city that is not San Francisco. Draw up any list of shared/common ideals we have. Unless you lead the interviewee by generalizing wildly my guess is that you'll get no response at all.

This isn't to dismiss the public. It's just that the only place you'd have heard of our ideas is places like HN or otherwise being directly involved in geek culture.

Post reply on HN