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Uber’s subprime leases put drivers on road, but leave some shackled

seattletimes.com

21–30 of 91 posts

Re: Uber’s subprime leases put drivers on road, but leave some shackled

#21
If drivers can walk away from the lease after 30 days (well, 44 to be precise), I see no problem with this offer. These drivers represent an extreme risk.

They just need to understand that the Uber lease should be treated as a short-term program.

https://get.uber.com/cl/xchange/ mentions pre-owned vehicles in addition to new ones.

"Vehicles requirements for Xchange Leasing program:

2009 or newer 75,000 or less miles no salvage, rebuilt or flood vehicle titles 4 full-sized doors minimum of 5 seatbelts (driver and 4 passengers) maximum amount financed $20,000 (subject to change)"

I would get the least expensive vehicle through Xchange, drive it to save about $3000, buy an Uber-qualified used vehicle, and enjoy life.

Re: Uber’s subprime leases put drivers on road, but leave some shackled

#22

Here is a new startup idea, UberAir: We don't do tedious things like owning planes and hedging fuel costs. On the contrary, we are all about connecting enthusiastic pilots with awesome passengers. The pilots get a lease offer for the planes so they'll own one after 50 years. The estimated pilot salary after deducting lease payments will be $1245 per month. We're also working on pilot-less planes. Once these are done,…

> ..by launching UberLavatory...

May I suggest a rebrand to ÜberLü?

Re: Uber’s subprime leases put drivers on road, but leave some shackled

#23

Here is a new startup idea, UberAir: We don't do tedious things like owning planes and hedging fuel costs. On the contrary, we are all about connecting enthusiastic pilots with awesome passengers. The pilots get a lease offer for the planes so they'll own one after 50 years. The estimated pilot salary after deducting lease payments will be $1245 per month. We're also working on pilot-less planes. Once these are done,…

I'm going to assume they'll have to have to create some kind of proxy for the unpiloted planes in order to escape liability for crashes.

Re: Uber’s subprime leases put drivers on road, but leave some shackled

#24
post #11

Hmm, sounds like a great idea, except that they should do this with cheaper, used cars. if you have bad credit, you shouldn't be buying a brand new car.

You can, though it's got a 6 year age limit [1]. They only finance up to $20,000 which rules out a large number of completely new cars anyway.

Vehicles requirements for Xchange Leasing program:

    2009 or newer
    75,000 or less miles
    no salvage, rebuilt or flood vehicle titles
    4 full-sized doors
    minimum of 5 seatbelts (driver and 4 passengers)
    maximum amount financed $20,000 (subject to change)
1 - https://get.uber.com/cl/xchange/

Re: Uber’s subprime leases put drivers on road, but leave some shackled

#25
articles like this drive me crazy, one might even be led to believe that the reporters for this story don't actually understand how a lease works.

If you walked into a car dealership and told them that you wanted to be able to break your lease with a couple of weeks notice and have unlimited mileage (with them understanding that you would be driving quite a bit) how much more do you think they would charge for that lease?

Re: Uber’s subprime leases put drivers on road, but leave some shackled

#26
Subprime lending == bad

Extending credit to lower-income borrowers == good

Are we just talking about price (interest) here? You may not like the price, but prices exist for a reason and cannot be changed by diktat. Who gets prime vs a subprime lease isn't determined by some ethnicity or the religious sect someone belongs in. It's determined by the risk and size of the loan. Smaller loans have relatively higher fixed costs, driving up the up front fees or interest rate. They are also harder to recover and may have a lower residual value, all factors that go into determining the risk. People with little or bad credit history are also more likely to default. This isn't controversial.

What's the alternative? Stop extending credit to risky borrowers? Force lenders to lend to risky borrowers at subsidized rates funded by tax dollars or through coercion?

[Edit] What I particularly don't like about these articles is the obfuscation of financial matters. For instance,

> After dropping $250 up front for her lease of a 2015 Honda Civic, she pays $160 a week to Xchange. If she keeps the car for the full three-year term, she’ll end up paying Uber $25,210. The Kelley Blue Book fair purchase price for a new 2015 Honda Civic SE in Los Angeles is $18,142.

> Schmitt said she’ll need to pay Uber $5,000 or so more to buy the car if she wants to keep it at the end of her lease.

So basically, she's getting a $18,142 (PV) car paying $160 (PMT) a week for 156 weeks (N) and have to pay 5,000 at the end to keep the car (-FV).

PV: 18,142

PMT: -160

N: 160

FV: -5000

I (weekly) -> 0.1942% (weekly)

I (annual) -> 1.001942^52 - 1 ->10.615%

So basically she got a loan at 10%. Also, you have to factor in that she has an option to purchase which she can choose to exercise. I don't know why they don't just say as much.

Re: Uber’s subprime leases put drivers on road, but leave some shackled

#27
post #6

I might give Uber a hard time about some things but I'm failing to see the evil in this. Yes, the leases might seem predatory, but if the target is high risk buyers and the apr is not off by an order of magnitude, seems like they are just enabling their work force. I could think of a lot worse things than a company giving someone a job and then offering them expensive tools to do it.

Honestly, the APR looks totally reasonable (by bad credit standards).

They cite a $96 average weekly payment for all Americans, and compare it to a $130 weekly payment for Xchange. The article's tone implies that I'm supposed to go "30% markup, shocking!", but it's comparing all borrowers to bad-credit borrowers. Knowing how other loans are priced, that seems like a pretty standard adjustment (especially for the easy-use terms of the lease).

I honestly had a lot of trouble finding the malice here. Yes, the cars are expensive, but it's like complaining about on the level payday loans as 'extortion' - the prices are set by a high default rate, not by some inexplicable market failure.

Re: Uber’s subprime leases put drivers on road, but leave some shackled

#28
post #26

Subprime lending == bad Extending credit to lower-income borrowers == good Are we just talking about price (interest) here? You may not like the price, but prices exist for a reason and cannot be changed by diktat. Who gets prime vs a subprime lease isn't determined by some ethnicity or the religious sect someone belongs in. It's determined by the risk and size of the loan. Smaller loans have relatively higher fixed…

> What's the alternative? Stop extending credit to risky borrowers? Force lenders to lend to risky borrowers at subsidized rates funded by tax dollars or through coercion?

This seems to be a lot of people's answer. There's this weird claim that payday loans and bad car loans and similar are caused by "greed!" when the companies making them are operating at tiny profit margins. High default rates dictate high prices (which forms a vicious cycle, but that can only be broken from the outside).

The most 'predatory' thing about most bad-credit loans is the fee/repossession system, which tends to be sloppy and abusive because the borrowers are too broke to fight it. Uber has sidestepped that almost completely with a no-consequence termination scheme.

The push to ban or cripple access to low income loans can really only be justified in two ways. One is that these loans are somehow corrupt, but we're not talking about balloon mortgages here - these companies are dealing with principal-agent problems like the home lenders were, and they don't have profit margins to give up. The second is that low-income people are too dumb to make good decisions, so they take these loans. It's a patronizing stance that shouldn't pretend to be uncontroversial.

Re: Uber’s subprime leases put drivers on road, but leave some shackled

#29
> She drives about 25 hours a week. In one week in May, she earned $604 for 28 hours of work, she said — a slightly better-than-average week. Uber took $160 for the car directly out of her paycheck, leaving her with $444.

So, for 28 hours of work, the driver got a car (with maintenance covered) and a ~$16/hour salary on top. Without the car payment, it's a $21/hour salary. That's apparently a near-average week.

I seem to have missed something, because it looks to me like Uber leant her a car that enabled her to do a job that pays better than even the most ambitious minimum wage initiatives. It's pricy, but so were all of her other options with "terrible" credit. Where's the evil here?

Re: Uber’s subprime leases put drivers on road, but leave some shackled

#30
post #26

Subprime lending == bad Extending credit to lower-income borrowers == good Are we just talking about price (interest) here? You may not like the price, but prices exist for a reason and cannot be changed by diktat. Who gets prime vs a subprime lease isn't determined by some ethnicity or the religious sect someone belongs in. It's determined by the risk and size of the loan. Smaller loans have relatively higher fixed…

> What's the alternative? Stop extending credit to risky borrowers? Force lenders to lend to risky borrowers at subsidized rates funded by tax dollars or through coercion? This seems to be a lot of people's answer. There's this weird claim that payday loans and bad car loans and similar are caused by "greed!" when the companies making them are operating at tiny profit margins. High default rates dictate high prices (…

Actually new subprime auto loans install a device that allows the lender to disable and locate the car remotely (obviously not while in use). So repossession is a lot easier (and presumably less sloppy) compared to the alternative and is part of the reason subprime auto rates have fell over the years. Lenders don't want to repossess as they are in the business of charging interest, not in selling pre-owned cars. They only repossess at last resort. Going after missed payments is also very expensive, especially given the small amounts.
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