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Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

independent.co.uk

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Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#161

Post by rmc »

arethuza wrote: post #80
blowski wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blimey, that's a fascinating link to be so public and explicit. They boast about not being funded by Trade Unions, and then invite big business to donate £50K so they can have lunch with the PM to "defeat the rise of socialism".

I was genuinely surprised that they use that phrase - what does socialism mean in that context? The NHS, opposition to zero hour contracts, basic human decency?

Firstly, remember that "socialism" is a dirty word in US politics, but not in EU politics. The UK Labour party does claim[1] to be a socialist party. Their homepage[2] has a link to "affiliated socialist societies".

However in this case, the tories are just scaremongering.

[1] They're not really socialist anymore, since Tony Blair & New Labour back in the 90s at least.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#162

Post by rmc »

funkyy wrote: post #82
vijayr wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some examples of democratic countries where corruption is low? Ask yourself why so many cabinet ministers retire and end up on the boards of large conglomerates that specialise in bidding for government outsourcing contracts, or why so many long-term viable agencies of government Doesn't this happen elsewhere too? Example - revolving door in financial institutions

Maybe Switzerland? Direct democracy (kind of) sounds like best bet...

You mean the place where all the corrupt money from the rest of the world is kept?

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#163

Post by rmc »

cstross wrote: post #140
funkyy wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe Switzerland? Direct democracy (kind of) sounds like best bet...

Note that direct democracy has its own drawbacks: for example, in some cantons the franchise was only extended to women on February 7th, 1971: http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/7/... (Pressure for social change tends to come from the young, voters skew old, so in practice many direct democracies tend to be very slow to adapt to widespread grassroots social change.)

> in some cantons the franchise was only extended to women on February 7th, 1971

It's worse than that. One small place didn't extend it till 1990.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#164

Post by rmc »

blowski wrote: post #68
scribu wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that it's nothing new in a general sense, but the reason this is catching people's attention is because there is this lingering perception that there is less corruption in the UK (and in western Europe, in general) than in other places.

The corruption is of a different nature. It's difficult to compare the corruption of, say, Kim Jong Un with that of David Cameron. In North Korea, the corruption is explicit and the proceeds benefit a small group of people. In the UK, it's systemic and hard to identify who's actually doing the corruption, and who benefits, and how. It's even harder to identify how to fix it. In North Korea, we could just say "wipe ou…

> In the rich world, the cronies don't belong to any one family, country, or business.

I dunno, I'd say a lot of them in the UK went to Eton.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#165

Post by arethuza »

Bootvis wrote: post #100
blowski wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blimey, that's a fascinating link to be so public and explicit. They boast about not being funded by Trade Unions, and then invite big business to donate £50K so they can have lunch with the PM to "defeat the rise of socialism".

What's even more amazing, the text right under that header: > Labour has said that they would turn their backs on our nuclear deterrent, abolish our armed forces and has openly sympathised with terrorist groups who seek to destroy our way of life. Their policies for the continued economic recovery of our great nation should make alarm bells ring. > Labour are steadily building an army of far left-wing supporters and…

That page is truly bizarre - I hadn't managed to read all of it before (due to blood pressure issues) but now that I read the rest of it I'm actually quite amused.

Do you think they are planning a 70's style coup?

[NB I'm probably already on a watch list after paying for a book with a debit card (duh!) in a Sinn Féin shop in Belfast)]

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#166

Post by sonthonax »

barry-cotter wrote: post #118
sonthonax wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore is a oligarchic dictatorship and so corruption is somewhat irrelevant there. You have the most important institutions controlled by the Lee family, who's cult of personality remains unquestioned by those in outside Singapore, I mean did Lee Hsien Loong really deserve to be senior wrangler at Cambridge or is that just PR? Yes, public sector competence is very high but that's not exactly difficult in an autho…

I'm sure there's a lot wrong with Singapore but the closest countries with comparable quality of government are Australia and Taiwan or Japan. If the Lee family have a cult of personality it's invisible to tourists too. And Cambridge didn't even put the thumb on the scales to let in the current generation of the royal family, you really think they care about the Lees?

Of course a top University in the UK cares about the Lees. If you were like Lee Hsien Loong and nearly guaranteed to be a next generation political leader, any sane self-interested educational institution would give you preference.

Universities do this all the time, accepting children of foreign oligarchs who have CVs and test results padded with dubious measures. Why do you think the LSE brushed under the table Saif Gaddafi's ghostwritten doctorate? (a) because they didn't notice, or (b) the network effect of having the presumed (at that time) next dictator of Libya?

Cambridge never needed to put the thumbs on the scale for the current generation of the UK Royal Family because they never applied.

Lee Hsien Loong's story just seems like a propaganda story tailored for the perfect Singaporean technocrat (clever, driven, and can fit himself into any institution). While he's no idiot, his life could have been dreamed up by the North Koreans, a meteoric career in the army, receiving the title 'Chief Wrangler' at Cambridge. It sounds like propaganda.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#167

Post by funkyy »

ci5er wrote: post #152
funkyy wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe Switzerland? Direct democracy (kind of) sounds like best bet...

Unless you have some sort of constitutional provisions protecting people from each other, 51% of your fellow citizens will trod all over the other 49%. And you may or may not have noticed, but most citizens don't seem to take the time to be up on the pros and cons for each and every provision of each and every piece of legislation that are debated today on the floor of parliamentary bodies. In other words: it might s…

Thats why I said "kind of". Real direct democracy should have those 3 fatures:

-mandatory referendum each year (question added to referendum once enough votes have been gathered) - anyone avoiding taking a vote is fined.

-3 answers under each question - Yes, No and Not Voting (so people wont just cast votes for subjects they are not interested in)

-2/3rds votes needed to pass the vote (to avoid 51% vs 49% - votes that count are only yes or no votes, "Not Voting" is not included)

-Then once the system matures proper democracy should have vote strength system - lets say 3 stages. 1st stage gets 1 vote, 3rd stage gets 3 votes. Higher stage = less taxes and more votes. You work + do some community voluntary work + have no issues with criminal law = you are 3rd stage.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#168

Post by funkyy »

rmc wrote: post #162
funkyy wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe Switzerland? Direct democracy (kind of) sounds like best bet...

You mean the place where all the corrupt money from the rest of the world is kept?

Yeah, and they are benefiting from it. Why would they care if other countries have bad tax systems? I dont see how this affects my answer.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#169

Post by ci5er »

funkyy wrote: post #167
ci5er wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you have some sort of constitutional provisions protecting people from each other, 51% of your fellow citizens will trod all over the other 49%. And you may or may not have noticed, but most citizens don't seem to take the time to be up on the pros and cons for each and every provision of each and every piece of legislation that are debated today on the floor of parliamentary bodies. In other words: it might s…

Thats why I said "kind of". Real direct democracy should have those 3 fatures: -mandatory referendum each year (question added to referendum once enough votes have been gathered) - anyone avoiding taking a vote is fined. -3 answers under each question - Yes, No and Not Voting (so people wont just cast votes for subjects they are not interested in) -2/3rds votes needed to pass the vote (to avoid 51% vs 49% - votes tha…

Hmm. Interesting. Democracy, but with something like super-majority rules.

I'd like to see a feature that allowed cooler heads to prevail over time (like the US Senate was originally designed for). How would you keep the passions of the moment from being inflamed enough to blow by your almost super-majority rules?

In the US, you'd have problems getting your stage concept past "disparate impact" studies, but since we're speaking in hypotheticals anyway - this seems very Jeffersonian. How do you get something like this past the people who would cry (rightly or not) that your stage-3 continues to favor the historically privileged?

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#170

Post by funkyy »

ci5er wrote: post #169
funkyy wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats why I said "kind of". Real direct democracy should have those 3 fatures: -mandatory referendum each year (question added to referendum once enough votes have been gathered) - anyone avoiding taking a vote is fined. -3 answers under each question - Yes, No and Not Voting (so people wont just cast votes for subjects they are not interested in) -2/3rds votes needed to pass the vote (to avoid 51% vs 49% - votes tha…

Hmm. Interesting. Democracy, but with something like super-majority rules. I'd like to see a feature that allowed cooler heads to prevail over time (like the US Senate was originally designed for). How would you keep the passions of the moment from being inflamed enough to blow by your almost super-majority rules? In the US, you'd have problems getting your stage concept past "disparate impact" studies, but since we'…

Any citizen of 18 years or older who works, do community work and avoid criminal charges would be stage 3. If someone cant pass those 3 rules, then what value he will bring to society anyways? His vote should be penalized. Dont get me wrong, its not to favorite good people, its to penalize people that cant do good to society. Vote strength should be based on your involvement in society and helping the community. Alcoholic bum should not have same amount of voting power as doctor. Yet, system would not discriminate poor people, since the rules are easy to follow. Rich people as part of their community work could speak at schools, drivers help people pass driving tests and unskilled workers clean woods from wild dumping places. Simple system that would allow lower taxes since the government would need less resources for public work done.

I would see many people avoiding doing the 40 hours of mandatory public work per year, so that would release them from being strong majority and their passion/patriotism would be graded this way.

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