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Amphetamine use in America's workforce

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Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#81

Post by Vraxx »

ta_339393 wrote: post #73
Lewton wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought giving people adhd meds and seeing whether it relaxes them was a pretty good (not perfect) indicator? Am I wrong?

That's not true, I have ADHD and I still feel stimulated when I take my medicine just like anyone else would. The difference is that it also gives me symptom relief as well. Over time you will develop more of a tolerance to these stimulating effects, at least to a degree, but the therapeutic benefits will continue for as long as you take them.

And therein lies the problem with making generalizations from single data points. Supposedly I have ADHD as well (I'm diagnosed such at least), and I generally become more mellow after taking adderall. I think the moral of this further anecdote is that generalizations should not be made on either of our experiences. Add into that the confounding factors of human bodies not being identical and having differing reactions to the same stimuli, and it becomes an even more dangerous game.

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#82

Post by Synaesthesia »

ta_339393 wrote: post #54

As one who takes methamphetamine (generic Desoxyn) for ADHD, I can't help but take issue with the sensationalism in this article. If someone takes the same low dose I do but doesn't actually have ADHD, how could they be considered "cracked out?" simply because they are faking a diagnosis? We know that low-dose amphetamines improve cognition in healthy individuals regardless of whether or not you have ADHD. We also kn…

They're physically safe unless taken in hugh doses an have many side effects like mental and emotional problems which can occur at any dosage level but of course get worse with increasing dose. Having used amphetamines I can attest they have positive and negative properties and we should be aware of both. There is also physical tolerance and they are addictive. They need to be well regulated and controlled. Read "A history of Speed" - it's a very interesting pharmaceutical story.

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#83

Post by inDigiNeous »

JohnBooty wrote: post #56
inDigiNeous wrote: post #16

I can't be the only one thinking that this can not be good in the long run. I still remember my friend who had a prescription for ADHD -medication, and they cut off this medication, and he couldn't do nothing but sleep for 3 weeks almost. What kind of state does prolonged use of amphetamines put the user ? Constantly being pushed to focus on one task, what kind of thought patterns does that create in the long run ? I…

I was prescribed approximately 25mg daily Adderall for 7 or 8 years, so here's my anecdotal answer to your questions... > I still remember my friend who had a prescription for ADHD -medication, > and they cut off this medication, and he couldn't do nothing but sleep > for 3 weeks almost. Wow. That is really irresponsible of them to cut him off so suddenly. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. I definitely had a "crash" i…

Thank you for your well put answer. I have no experience with amphetamines, but have been thinking about this subject, but it's not something that is exactly being talked about in public.

Sometimes I even felt it a little bit unfair as a programmer, that I am competing with people who are medicated. But I don't think like this anymore.

And yes, I agree on the doing less is more, with highly intelligent tasks you just start banging your head against the wall at some point, and anything beyond this point can be time just wasted, when we could be just relaxing and resting, to be more in tune again the next day.

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#84

Post by ta_339393 »

Houshalter wrote: post #75

Yet sadly these drugs are still heavily regulated. You need to renew your prescription every month, which is expensive. Doctors look at you skeptically. In some countries they don't prescribe them at all, or only prescribe less effective versions to prevent abuse. And then there are articles like this that appear every so often, telling us that we aren't really sick. Or that people who take these drugs are abusing th…

Very good points.

They really make us jump through a lot of hoops just to get the medicine we need to live a somewhat normal life, all in the name of preventing drug abuse. I don't believe it actually does anything significant to prevent abuse, those who want to abuse drugs will always find a way.

There's so much of a stigma associated with low dose amphetamines and it's completely unfounded. I really noticed this when I switched from dextroamphetamine to methamphetamine (Desoxyn). Since my insurance wouldn't cover the brand name drug, I get the Mylan generic that says "METHAMPHETAMINE" on the label and I could really notice a difference in the way I was treated at the pharmacy. It was like they immediately assumed I was some dangerous drug addict. I'd try to be friendly with them and all I would get is really robotic responses.

It's ridiculous that they assume methamphetamine is this much more dangerous or addictive of a drug, it's not. In fact it's the best stimulant I have ever used. Way more effective than dextroamphetamine with fewer side effects.

Luckily I have a good psychiatrist that is setup to handle the monthly refills in a sane manor and doesn't treat me like a drug addict when I'm just looking to improve my life.

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#85

Post by lfowles »

Vraxx wrote: post #70
justin_vanw wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this is a myth, it has the same effect on everyone.

Not trying to disregard this sentiment present in the thread, but I could easily see it having the same physical effects, but how exactly do they quantify how it affects your brain processes and how you feel. Anecdotally, I knew some people who took adderall in college that were not prescribed it and it seemed to cause them to have different behavior than myself. A similar situation, I would imagine, is how alcohol a…

It's probably all about dose. Just takes more for an ADHD individual to be affected the same.

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#86

Post by llamataboot »

eridius wrote: post #66
llamataboot wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see some sort of double-blind study that bears this out, as I have serious doubts as to its veracity as ADHD is a huge spectrum of ambiguous symptoms. No doubt there are some people that have a lot harder time focusing than others, and there's no doubt stimulants help you focus, so in that case someone that has a harder time focusing might find them more beneficial, but the oft-repeated canard that stimul…

You seem to be equating therapeutic doses of amphetamines with recreational doses (i.e. overdosing). The amount of amphetamines people take for recreational purposes or for those all-nighters and whatnot are more than what people take for medicinal purposes. So it's not some magical bright line that makes amphetamines good for some people and bad for others. But it is a condition that makes therapeutic doses benefici…

#1) Let's get specific about our dosages then. I know people prescribed 60mg of adderall a day. And lots of people prescribed 40mg. I guarantee if you give a person with no amphetamine tolerance 40 mg of adderall (yes, even if you split it into two doses) they are going to know they are on some speed. In fact, most people I know that use adderall "recreationally" (whether for pleasure or productivity -- that is they aren't prescribed, take the same or less than the people I know taking it prescribed -- I usually take 20 mg to crank on some work or be more chatty at a party.

#2) Whether ADHD is "real" or not requires a complex discussion about epistemology, etc, as do all mental health diagnoses. What do you mean, "real"? Yes, of course it is real in so far as there are people with various clusters of symptoms that seem to go together, but they are all on a spectrum. Psychiatric diagnoses are inherently unreliable[1] -- in that it can't generally be replicated sufficiently from doctor to doctor with the same patient (or even doctor to same patient at different times) even with that giant bible sitting there we call the DSM.

So yes, there are a variety of states of consciousness that vaguely cluster together that we have decided to call "depression". We know some chemicals that help some of these states -- though it's arguable that many of them are better than placebo (hello, SSRIs, but hey ketamine seems quite promising). Any therapist worth hir salt knows that depressions are different for different people -- different causes different manifestations etc. Yet thanks largely to the pharma industry, we have begun to collectively think there's this very specific thing called "depression" that's due to "brain chemistry" that can be fixed with XYZ and in fact human consciousness is much much much more complicated than that -- from both a psycho-spiritual angle and from a neuroscientific angle.

Lastly, there's no doubt amphetamine usage has been around for a long time, and probably at higher concentrations than today among some population groups (middle-aged women in the 50s for example). But I doubt you can find me any study showing that we've ever seen so many people on high-dose daily amphetamines from a young age through adulthood until the past decade or so.

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#87

Post by ta_339393 »

joe_the_user wrote: post #78
ta_339393 wrote: post #54

As one who takes methamphetamine (generic Desoxyn) for ADHD, I can't help but take issue with the sensationalism in this article. If someone takes the same low dose I do but doesn't actually have ADHD, how could they be considered "cracked out?" simply because they are faking a diagnosis? We know that low-dose amphetamines improve cognition in healthy individuals regardless of whether or not you have ADHD. We also kn…

If someone takes the same low dose I do but doesn't actually have ADHD, how could they be considered "cracked out?" simply because they are faking a diagnosis? "Cracked out" or not isn't quite the question. Amphetamines in low doses have measurable benefits in terms of increased ability to concentrate and work longer hours and definite drawbacks in terms of longer term health effects and risks of actual serious addic…

There are no negative effects on health by taking them at prescribed doses unless you already have an existing cardiac condition or something similar. You can safely take these drugs your entire life without complications.

There is a potential for abuse but studies have shown that people on stimulant therapy are LESS likely to abuse drugs, including stimulants.

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#89

Post by Havoc »

WalterSear wrote: post #35
Havoc wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>bit sensationalized...This excerpt..."Abuse by young professionals" I don't think so. I'm in one of those environments where long hours are common and it definitely does happen. There are also people using a mix of uppers & downers (need the uppers to be wide awake but then can't sleep when at home hence downers). Hell I'm doing a vaguely similar thing (just with coffee and melatonin). Add a bit of anti-depressants…

I'd also not recommend melatonin, but not for the reason that the other poster gave, which suggest that they are taking melatonin in the amounts that it is formulated at pharmacies, which is usually orders of magnitude that of the recommended dose, and probably too late in the evening (>Don't However, after taking it for several years on most days, I developed heart palpitations and other strange sensations. They dis…

>I'd also not recommend melatonin

Yeah I'm aware that its not ideal. Come to think of it I actually told myself I'd stop once peak season is over so I guess thats now. First need to get rid of the coffee though then the falling asleep will be fine.

>take it ~3 hours before going to bed

I thought 1 hour?

Re: Amphetamine use in America's workforce

#90

Post by drzaiusapelord »

kome wrote: post #21

International comparisons would really help a lot to understand the phenomena... I find that there is a tendency by many North Americans to find pseudo-biological justification about everything. In other words: trying to find individual solutions ("my dopamine is so messed up!") to social problems.

The largest users of anti-depressants are socialist style nations like Iceland, Australia, and Portugal. These countries are run almost the opposite of the US. So there's more than the usual liberal criticisms of how the US is too competitive/not competitive enough or has too easy access to drugs/not enough or whatever applies here.

>North Americans to find pseudo-biological justification about everything.

Yet the above nations are nowhere near N America. Perhaps this issue is a lot complex than you care to understand. I guess if you want ad-impresions then you must cater to people's ignorance and biases and leave any facts, science, or statistics out of it.

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