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World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

bbc.com

151–160 of 170 posts

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#151
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To all you western europeans complaining: come down to Brazil, and I'll take you on a tour of our "Top Ten Most Abandoned-Halfway Billion Dollar Government Works" ;-) Oh, and just to give an example, the construction of one of our nuclear power plants began in 1984 but was halted in 1986, only to begin where it left off in 2010, to be finished in 2015. Wait, now it is in 2016. Nope, just checked, it should be in 2018…

Well construction of the Cologne Cathedral started in 1248 and was halted in 1473, only to begin where it left off in 1842 and was eventually completed in 1880 - so don't give up hope ;)

In Spain the Sagrada Família cathedral has been under construction for 134 years and has another 30 to go.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#152
post #18

"Nine workers died during the work." Although on-time or early and within budget, it is still a dangerous job to do. That is 0.346% of the total workforce (2600).

I found that whole music performance from the article very weird. It seemed disrespectful to all of the people that actually worked and supposedly died on this project.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#153
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd wager that there's another reason why big projects are usually pretty successful in Switzerland; time - and budget wise: Political legitimacy, signed off by popular referendum. When you look north to our German neighbors, with a comparable work ethos and certainly a fair understanding of engineering you see projects go south again and again. Be it Stuttgart 21 (the new train station), or that horrible mess that i…

It's interesting because I feel like 20 years ago that Germany was in the same vein as the swiss, things were completed on time and on budget, always. I don't know what's changed.

I wonder as well. I haven't been on an on-time train in Germany in the past year and a half.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing how hot it is in some places underground, up to 44C. Wow.

I am curious that if we do get to Mars can we simply dig down or go under a mountain for warmth? You would not need a full on tunnel, just a system similar to geothermal heating

For long term stays we'd need to dig underground dwellings on Mars anyways, though not nearly as deep, as the radiation that gets through its atmosphere will be very harmful to anyone living on the surface for multi year time spans.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#155
post #81
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is incredibly disrespectful to the professionals in other parts of the developed world who do infrastructure or construction related work. Every mega project (and most mid sized projects) invests significant money and time in planning and design and also has defined work flows/design processes. I'd be interested to see any breakdown of costs or schedule that show "planning" as being 50% of the the work.

By praising something you're implicitly insulting everything else?

People are equal, cultures are not.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd wager that there's another reason why big projects are usually pretty successful in Switzerland; time - and budget wise: Political legitimacy, signed off by popular referendum. When you look north to our German neighbors, with a comparable work ethos and certainly a fair understanding of engineering you see projects go south again and again. Be it Stuttgart 21 (the new train station), or that horrible mess that i…

Really there's a referendum on all big projects? Is this governed by a certain threshold i.e above amount X it gets put to referendum? That's pretty awesome if so. In the US this done in a back room away from public view it has various names - pork barrel politics, horse trading, etc. And such allocations are often tacked onto other legislation that might have nothing to do with the project.

Switzerland has an interesting political system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_Switzerland

"Switzerland's voting system is unique among modern democratic nations in that Switzerland practices direct democracy in parallel with representative democracy. That's why the Swiss system is called semi-direct democracy.[1] Direct democracy allows any citizen to challenge any law approved by the parliament or, at any time, propose a modification of the federal Constitution.

...

Approximately four times a year, voting occurs over various issues; these include both initiatives and referendums, where policies are directly voted on by people, and elections, where the populace votes for officials. "

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd wager that there's another reason why big projects are usually pretty successful in Switzerland; time - and budget wise: Political legitimacy, signed off by popular referendum. When you look north to our German neighbors, with a comparable work ethos and certainly a fair understanding of engineering you see projects go south again and again. Be it Stuttgart 21 (the new train station), or that horrible mess that i…

Really there's a referendum on all big projects? Is this governed by a certain threshold i.e above amount X it gets put to referendum? That's pretty awesome if so. In the US this done in a back room away from public view it has various names - pork barrel politics, horse trading, etc. And such allocations are often tacked onto other legislation that might have nothing to do with the project.

There are different forms.

On a cantonal level there is (among others) a "finance referendum". This may be mandatory or optional depending on the canton. Optional means the project is only actually put to a referendum if an eligible group demands it. An eligible group may be a political party, a certain number of voters, certain interest groups, etc.

For example in the Canton of Zürich there is an optional referendum on decisions of the Cantonal Council on new non-recurrent expenditure of more than 6 million francs or new recurrent annual expenditures of more than 600'000 francs. To actually put such a decision to a referendum requires either 3000 voters (public referendum), 12 municipalities, the city of Zürich or the city of Winterthur (municipal referendum), or 45 Cantonal Council members (cantonal referendum).

On a federal level there is no "finance referendum". It has been proposed, but most political parties are against it since it could hinder the Federal Council in its freedom of action and delay or even block important investments. But there's a mandatory referendum for all constitutional changes and certain other things like joining supranational communities etc. and a optional referendum for all federal laws and certain other things like international treaties etc. The optional referendum requires 50'000 voters (or eight cantons, but this only actually happened once).

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#158
post #68
post #3

"... longest and deepest rail tunnel ..." and "... delivered on time and within budget ..." Only in Switzerland, I guess. :) I wish there were better write ups of how the planning for this came together and what differs from other somewhat similar huge projects.

That is typical for Switzerland, and it is because for the Swiss, "planning is 50% of the work". They invest the time up-front in planning and thinking about how whatever it is they are doing is going to work, and once they either ran proof of concept tests or thought it through, they set the machinery in motion. There will even be a clearly documented process for modelling the process, and a process for getting the…

Even in Switzerland it sometimes goes wrong. One interesting example is the bridge in Laufenburg. Construction was started on both the German and the Swiss side. In the end the sides didn't match up (Number 7 on http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27509559).

The German Wikipedia says Swiss engineers were at fault (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochrheinbrücke#Konstruktionsf...)

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#159

It seems as if Europe has most of the worlds great infrastructure projects going on right now, with this and Cross Rail. Is there anything of similar scale going on in the US, China or India? EDIT: Answering my own question... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transport_megaprojects and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_megaprojects

Just look at this gif of the shanghai metro growing from nothing in 1993 to the largest metro system in the world in 2015:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/SHM_evol...

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#160
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is typical for Switzerland, and it is because for the Swiss, "planning is 50% of the work". They invest the time up-front in planning and thinking about how whatever it is they are doing is going to work, and once they either ran proof of concept tests or thought it through, they set the machinery in motion. There will even be a clearly documented process for modelling the process, and a process for getting the…

I'd wager that there's another reason why big projects are usually pretty successful in Switzerland; time - and budget wise: Political legitimacy, signed off by popular referendum. When you look north to our German neighbors, with a comparable work ethos and certainly a fair understanding of engineering you see projects go south again and again. Be it Stuttgart 21 (the new train station), or that horrible mess that i…

> if the government changes

So here's the thing to understand about Swiss government: It never changes. Well at least its executive branch doesn't. Bear with me for a moment.

Swiss government (federal, cantonal and communal) differs from the American model in three ways:

* Power is not concentrated in a single person, but a council (e.g. 7 members on federal level). Decisions (as far as they can go before involving parliament) are made by secret votes inside the council and carried through as a single entity. Council members are supposed to never publicly talk about their individual opinions, only what the council represents as a whole. They're not supposed to be politicians anymore, they're acting much more like a board of directors.

* There's no such thing as a government / opposition split in Switzerland. In theory it could happen, but it never plays out this way. Instead, the four largest parties present their council candidates to the national assembly, who then vote for them one after the other. If a candidate doesn't please them the opposing parties form coalitions to vote in a counter candidate from the same party. That's the most spectacle we get. So even a socialist will vote for conservative council members - because the conservative party will do the same in return. It's a political truce that works like this since 67 years [1].

* Council members, while not immune to being 'deelected', in practise tend to stay in office for as long as they want. While there is an election cycle it doesn't really matter the way it plays out.

All of this together creates tremendous stability in the Swiss political system. The main instability comes from people's initiatives, which I tend to see as a good thing, since that at least reflects the viewpoint of the majority.

Really, sometimes I wonder how they came up with such a well oiled system in 1848. Maybe it helped being able to learn from the first gen. modern Republics and their mistakes (USA and France).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_formula

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