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Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

nautil.us

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Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#111

Post by pavel_lishin »

further_tech wrote: post #87
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of religious people You don't give athiests and agnostics enough credit. Religion is not required for morals and community values.

At its core, Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc. Maybe some atheists also have these, but there's not a guarantee all act this way. IMO, before founding an "atheist church", I'd at least establish "secular values" and find a community around it. EDIT: I was called a "delusional idiot" for claiming Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness. I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUE…

> I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUES. I'm well aware of "hypocritical Christians", it has nothing to do with them.

No true Scotsman!

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#112

Post by [deleted] »

baron816 wrote: post #108
cousin_it wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bringing depressed people together doesn't help them. They need attention from non-depressed people, who abandoned them for the freedom of modernity. Solving this problem won't be win-win, so a startup won't help. Just like you can't make a startup to redistribute money from rich people to poor people. It's a task for charity or government.

I'm not aiming to bring depressed people together. I'm aiming to bring people together, depressed or not. I think no matter who you are, going from a situation where you know no or few people who live close to you, to one where you suddenly know and have access to people who are within walking distance would make a huge difference on your life. Will that solve all of a depressed person's problems? I don't know, but I…

[deleted]

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#113

Post by iSnow »

iofj wrote: post #82
iSnow wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a lot of countries - Germany, Britain, France to be sure - the pub is such a third place, especially for men. Their special culture seems to be in decline as well, but not as dramatically as churches.

Well the pub has several problems - social stigma for one, and not being free (and in fact being quite expensive 20/30 euros per evening is not much) And as you say pub attendance is down by a lot too.

Traditionally there was zero stigma attached to having a beer in the "Kneipe" in Germany, especially for the working class typically living in small flats.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#114

Post by ryandrake »

cableshaft wrote: post #96
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Churches are definitely a great community resource, but I imagine that many people (myself included) don't want to be preached something we don't believe in every week even if it means losing out on those community benefits. I wonder if something else could be established, or even if such a thing as "athiest/agnostic churches" could be organized.

Or just a community space with rooms that people can set things up in. Libraries kind of fill that role today, but you have to reserve the rooms sometimes a year in advance. I mean more a place where you go, say 'this empty room is going to be used to play games for the next two hours' or 'we're going to set up some punch and cookies here for people to socialize for an hour' or whatever, and you're good. Maybe be abl…

I can agree with your last statement. Unfortunately, due to liability and insurance reasons, "generic venues for doing stuff" are pretty expensive and unavailable. I help organize a local group of game players and by far finding an inexpensive (by this I mean under $120/day) venue willing to unlock their doors for 50-60 people on a weekend is one of our biggest ongoing challenges. There are lots of businesses that don't operate on the weekend and have to maintain their empty office for 2 days a week--you'd think they'd be open to renting a conference room out for some extra $$ but nope--if someone trips and falls, it's suddenly a money loser for them.

Also, as far as I can tell, there's not really a marketplace for these kind of "single-day activity space" rentals, so I mostly trawl through Cragslist and pound pavement looking for HOA clubhouses and cheap hotel conference centers. There's your next start-up idea: AirBNB for temporary office space on the weekend.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#115

Post by bargl »

rebeccaskinner wrote: post #63
brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

I think in a lot of places churches have served as a defactor "third place" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place ) for communities. It seems like the decline in church attendance mirrors the decline in a lot of third place spaces. None of my grandparents ever attended church with any regularity, but I know that they were all involved in various social and community activities with the types of clubs that don't…

As an Ex-Christian, I miss the "third place" but I do not miss the church. I don't know where to get that same idea for my kids but I also don't want them growing up with a belief in the doctrine I grew up with. I also have strong feelings about what religions my child is exposed to. I don't mind him being exposed to multiple religions, but there are certain religions I would consider secondary and don't want to be his primary exposure.

I'm fairly alone in this, and I say Ex-Christian to indicate I'm not Atheist but I don't know if that's true. Anyway, this is something I've been struggling with a lot. I just spent 3 hours last night talking to a Power salesman, because we had a good time chatting and I don't get that outside my friends and work. There is no forced place for me to talk to acquaintences.

Honestly, if I didn't disagree so strongly with the theology of the LDS (Mormon) church I'd go back to that. They are FANTASTIC for kids, parents, events, etc. They instill great morals (other than homophobia and some other things I disagree with). But they are in general very nice people.

So where do I go for a "third place" without God being involved, but I still get the, "hey man we missed you last week, where were you." and "Have you given your money to God lately?"

Sorry this struck a nerve, and I'm almost ready to go back to the LDS church just so Sam has people he knows but to try to counter the Theology by exposing him to other beliefs as well. IDK.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#116

Post by VLM »

supergreg wrote: post #39
minikites wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>remained single most of my life despite my other successes I think the media has a role to play here too, the idea that you need romantic love in order to be successful or complete is a toxic one. Edit: a lot of replies to my comment are misinterpreting what I'm saying as "romance is a new idea invented by the media" when all I said is that it's possible to have a complete and successful life without romance.

Do you mean one does not need romantic love to have a relationship or one does not need a relationship at all? The former seems like an archaic idea (arranged marriages for example) while the later I've seen very questioned by society, mostly by older people.

HN is a young people echo chamber, yet not entirely, and I can assure you from personal experience and observation of peers that a successful twenty year marriage involves remarkably little romance, although keeping a little going is nice. I think there's a lot of young people with soon to be broken expectations who think that marriage means every night is romantic date night. Most life is muddling thru.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#117

Post by temp11813367 »

TheLilHipster wrote: post #103

I've been working corporate IT for 4 years now. I'm quite attractive and analytically intelligent, but lack social and emotional intelligence (always been a loner due to childhood circumstances). I feel alienated, I can't relate to others in this rat race. The constant dick waving and competition driven by social media, it's just such a turnoff. Without motivation or passion for games like I used to, life feels empty…

All people have value. You have more value than your job, no matter how annoying your colleagues may be sometimes.

If you are considering self-harm or suicide as an option for you, please reach out for advice or help. Many people have been through similar situations and found the advice of others helpful.[1]

I find that there is little wisdom in the world I like to quote, but here is some:

"And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."[2]

[1]1-800-273-8255

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderata

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#118

Post by Bartweiss »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #85
huxley wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll find that in some communities, the Universalist Unitarians or liberal/universalist/nontheist Quaker meetings might fit the need. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers I've known several atheists/agnostics that go to both locally and the few times I've gone to either the meetings tend to be quite low in dogma. Not my thing, but if you crave that sort of commu…

I looked into the local Unitarian Universalists, and they are very New Age types. I like their social justice angle but wouldn't be able to sit through their sermons/discussions without making faces.

It's worth seeing if you have any other Unitarian church near you. There's a lot of variance in their practices, from intense New Age spiritualism to simple discussion and silent reflection.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#119

Post by forkandwait »

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

The problem, as others have said, is the accompanying theology i.e. Magical bullshut.

I believe, however, we would do well as a civilization to study what The Church (capital letters on purpose) has done well in the last 2000 years, strip it of magic and veiled class dynamics, and rebuild it for the social good.

I work as a data analyst for a large social service government agency, and I always joke that we should hire the LDS (Mormon) church to run our social welfare programs. Well, sans God and some nasty sexism and LGBT hatefulness.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#120

Post by icebraining »

further_tech wrote: post #87
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of religious people You don't give athiests and agnostics enough credit. Religion is not required for morals and community values.

At its core, Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc. Maybe some atheists also have these, but there's not a guarantee all act this way. IMO, before founding an "atheist church", I'd at least establish "secular values" and find a community around it. EDIT: I was called a "delusional idiot" for claiming Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness. I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUE…

The thing is, when adherence to a community is enforced (even if just through social pressure), you'll get a lot of uncommitted people who might even wish they would share the values, but don't.

Atheists as a whole might be less likely to share a system of values, but those who sought and joined such an organization of their own volition (and not because their family dragged them to church every Sunday) are extremely likely to shared its values.

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