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Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

independent.co.uk

101–110 of 173 posts

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were not convicted of anything, if you're referring to the Mexico/Iran story which I guess you are. You heard the US Government's side of the story. The USG agreed not to take the charges to court as long as HSBC accepted big fines and didn't say anything (i.e. didn't attempt to defend itself in public). So there was never any court case or any judicial process involved. If you hear only the government's story a…

You're attempting to imply that HSBC was an innocent party, and that's simply nonsense. HSBC was fined because it failed to follow the rules put in place to prevent money laundering. Often it completely failed to make any attempt to follow those rules. E.g. "...The monitor’s findings described several incidents, among them one where an HSBC branch in Sinaloa, a Mexican state that has experienced much drug-related vio…

You're attempting to imply that HSBC was an innocent party

Not quite. I said explicitly that all banks are guilty of violating AML laws, because it's impossible not to be guilty.

You then go ahead and prove my point: someone turned up with some cash, and gave an explanation of where he got it. The banker in question accepted the story and the monitor found it to be "clearly suspicious".

"Suspicious" is such a vague standard that nobody can ever comply with such laws. There will always be transactions that are debatable, grey area, or turn out to be suspicious in hindsight but weren't at the time. Your own example proves this: apparently if you ran a bank nobody would ever be able to open an account and deposit money there, which is a problem, because being able to do that is kind of the point of having banks.

The story you link to admits as such in the very next paragraph after the shrimp farmer quote:

Compliance officials who must decide whether a bank should open an account or extend a loan can face a tough job, having to make the call based on the movement of money through existing accounts or sketchy data such as local knowledge and material found online. Regulators want to see signs that compliance departments are at least flagging suspicious transactions and customers. That didn’t appear to happen in the Sinaloa matter.

Maybe people open accounts that way in this part of Mexico all the time? Heck, maybe the person who opened the account thought it was suspicious but was afraid of turning up inconveniently dead if he turned the guy down. It's very easy for Americans to sit around on their Aeron chair in nice safe Washington DC and criticise people on the front line of the drug war for not trying hard enough.

But I'm not sure I'm arguing with a reasonable person. Your response to "the banking system might collapse" is "that would hardly be a bad thing", which is a position so far out that I doubt you will ever change your mind. What's your intended alternative? Bitcoin?

That said, my focus in this thread has been on money laundering rules, not trading fraud.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were not convicted of anything, if you're referring to the Mexico/Iran story which I guess you are. You heard the US Government's side of the story. The USG agreed not to take the charges to court as long as HSBC accepted big fines and didn't say anything (i.e. didn't attempt to defend itself in public). So there was never any court case or any judicial process involved. If you hear only the government's story a…

You're attempting to imply that HSBC was an innocent party, and that's simply nonsense. HSBC was fined because it failed to follow the rules put in place to prevent money laundering. Often it completely failed to make any attempt to follow those rules. E.g. "...The monitor’s findings described several incidents, among them one where an HSBC branch in Sinaloa, a Mexican state that has experienced much drug-related vio…

> HSBC was fined because it failed to follow the rules put in place to prevent money laundering.

First, failing to follow rules put in place to prevent money laundering is not itself money laundering. Just like failing to follow rules put in place to prevent traffic accidents is different than driving your car into someone.

Second, the true story is one degree removed even from what you say. A key element of the government's case against HSBC was that it classified Mexico as "standard or medium risk" when classifying it as high risk would have triggered additional controls intended to prevent money laundering: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/legacy/2012/... (pages 7-8). The government states that HSBC "should have known Mexico was high risk" based on various publications discussing money-laundering risks in Mexico.

HSBC was not an innocent party, but it was guilty of regulatory rather than criminal violations. It failed to put country X in risk category Y; it failed to adequately staff it's AML department, etc. For those regulatory violations, it paid a fine, which was the appropriate punishment.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#103
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some examples of democratic countries where corruption is low? Ask yourself why so many cabinet ministers retire and end up on the boards of large conglomerates that specialise in bidding for government outsourcing contracts, or why so many long-term viable agencies of government Doesn't this happen elsewhere too? Example - revolving door in financial institutions

Singapore seems pretty low corruption. MPs get paid a ton here too.

Not really democratic, though.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#104

The UK is the second country with the most intermediaries (banks, accountants, lawyers…) listed in the Panama papers. The first one is Hong Kong, a former British colony. "More than half of the companies listed in the leaked Mossack Fonseca documents are registered in the U.K. or its overseas territories [...] If we want to understand modern Britain, we first need to realize that our primary economic function in the…

Except that the U.S. is considered to have a well-enough developed system of on-shore tax havens to not require going to Panama.

Please name just one. I pay a lot in taxes.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were not convicted of anything, if you're referring to the Mexico/Iran story which I guess you are. You heard the US Government's side of the story. The USG agreed not to take the charges to court as long as HSBC accepted big fines and didn't say anything (i.e. didn't attempt to defend itself in public). So there was never any court case or any judicial process involved. If you hear only the government's story a…

The American's case was that HSBC frequently circumvented the rules designed to prevent dealings with Burma, North Korea and Iran. That they did not disclose tens of thousands of sensitive transactions when they should have. That when setting up banks in Mexico they marked them as low risk when they should be marked as high. That their Japanese branch accepted huge blocks of sequentially numbered travellers cheques t…

The payments in question were legal at the time: they were from countries that did not have sanctions against Iran to Iran.

The Americans took a novel position in that case: that because the payments were denominated in dollars and were processed by computers in New York, American sanctions should apply to foreign payments. They then proceeded to punish HSBC for "evading sanctions" that didn't actually exist. It did achieve one thing though: it sent a powerful message that US law is in fact international law.

Saying "Mexican banks should have been high risk instead of low risk" is the kind of subjective judgement call that highlighst my entire point. Maybe the high risk category was reserved for places like Congo or Nigeria or Pakistan, and Mexico - being a relatively stable state that engages in heavy trade with America - did not justify the same level of scrutiny as those.

My logic is very simple. The laws are so vague that any kind of activity can be retroactively labelled as 'suspicious' and thus illegal. But that is not the rule of law.

Your final paragraph shows you didn't understand what I wrote at all. HSBC is absolutely guilty of violating AML laws, as are all other banks, and if they went to court then a whole lot of bankers would have gone to prison for a long time ... just for engaging in the business of banking. This is not in the best interests of society because we then might find ourselves without banks, and neat though such a world might seem, we'd need an alternative first.

The public apology was a part of the plea bargain struck with the US Gov. They were forced to do it. You'd do the same if the alternative was spending the rest of your life rotting in jail.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#106
post #52

The inadmissible truth about corruption in the UK is that it's endemic. And not just money laundering; the very way governments (both Labour, Conservative, and Coalition) have pursued the business of privatization of state assets since 1979 is uniquely corrupt, on a massive scale. Hint: corruption isn't just about simple bribery and envelopes full of banknotes passing hand. Ask yourself why so many cabinet ministers…

Is that also evidence that companies hope they will be able to influence government by having an "insider" on their team? And they can show their investors that they have someone on the inside as well? Even if that individual is completely unable to in fact influence policy.

Also, what is your definition of corruption?

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#107
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The London figure is always trotted out. All accounting is done through London. Also counting money like this doesn't count "wealth". A bunch of people creating new money as credit actually soaks up wealth as the rest of the UK is forced to exchange actual labour and products for fiat money against ever increasing land prices. Tax havens aren't bastions of freedom. Load of rubbish. They are allowing massive inequalit…

If a trafficker uses a mule to carry opium across the mountains, then sells the drugs and then sells the mule, is the new owner of the mule responsible for drug trafficking? Abramovich is Russian and the responsibility of the people running Russia. Likewise if the Maffia recycles money into legitimate assets in Italy then trades those assets in London, it's pretty rich for an Italian to try to pin that on London. The…

> if the Maffia recycles money into legitimate assets in Italy then trades those assets in London, it's pretty rich for an Italian to try to pin that on London

It's not rich to criticise London if London is aware of or suspects that it's the Mafia they are dealing with and that the "legitimate" assets are simply laundered.

I also don't see why it's rich for an Italian to do the criticising. Perhaps you can explain that one.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#109
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the U.S. is considered to have a well-enough developed system of on-shore tax havens to not require going to Panama.

Please name just one. I pay a lot in taxes.

LLC in Delaware. Literally listed by my country's regulations as a tax haven.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#110
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blimey, that's a fascinating link to be so public and explicit. They boast about not being funded by Trade Unions, and then invite big business to donate £50K so they can have lunch with the PM to "defeat the rise of socialism".

What's even more amazing, the text right under that header: > Labour has said that they would turn their backs on our nuclear deterrent, abolish our armed forces and has openly sympathised with terrorist groups who seek to destroy our way of life. Their policies for the continued economic recovery of our great nation should make alarm bells ring. > Labour are steadily building an army of far left-wing supporters and…

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