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Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

independent.co.uk

31–40 of 173 posts

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#31

The UK is the second country with the most intermediaries (banks, accountants, lawyers…) listed in the Panama papers. The first one is Hong Kong, a former British colony. "More than half of the companies listed in the leaked Mossack Fonseca documents are registered in the U.K. or its overseas territories [...] If we want to understand modern Britain, we first need to realize that our primary economic function in the…

And when you consider Hong Kong is the tiniest in all those places mentioned within the paper........

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#32

The UK is the second country with the most intermediaries (banks, accountants, lawyers…) listed in the Panama papers. The first one is Hong Kong, a former British colony. "More than half of the companies listed in the leaked Mossack Fonseca documents are registered in the U.K. or its overseas territories [...] If we want to understand modern Britain, we first need to realize that our primary economic function in the…

You got it. If the world crushed The City working people everywhere would benefit. The City is a total cancer. As a Brit I'd love to see it removed, permanently.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money laundering used to have a fairly precise definition when the crime was first invented in the 1970's: "knowingly working to disguise the origins of money gained through crime". But over time various people (primarily aggressive tough-on-crime politicians) have watered down the definition until it's now more like "any financial transaction that someone somewhere doesn't like". We can see the slide in the USA PATR…

How do you feel about HSBC being convicted of money laundering? Do you feel that they were wrongly convicted based on the original definition of the term?

They were not convicted of anything, if you're referring to the Mexico/Iran story which I guess you are. You heard the US Government's side of the story. The USG agreed not to take the charges to court as long as HSBC accepted big fines and didn't say anything (i.e. didn't attempt to defend itself in public). So there was never any court case or any judicial process involved.

If you hear only the government's story and the other side is gagged, the listener will always conclude the perp is guilty. You can dig in and find the other side if you like: I did. The case looks a lot less clear, then. For instance HSBC was accused of laundering lots of money for Mexican drug cartels. Most people think that means "knowingly laundering". It doesn't: the money in question actually came from remittances firms. The American's case was something like this: there's so much money being remitted across the border, there must be drug money in there. HSBC is moving money for remittances firms. Therefore HSBC must be moving drug money without knowing. Therefore their AML standards are too low, therefore they are money laundering.

As you can see, I am not sympathetic to this kind of logic or "justice". Certainly the US case would not have been successful in court under the original definition as they never presented evidence any kind of conspiracy inside HSBC to launder drug money. The allegations revolved entirely around HSBC not trying hard enough, which is not the same thing.

Actual convictions for anti-money laundering offences are very rare. This kind of fine-and-silence outcome is much more common.

The reasons are simple. The current situation is kind of like a Cuban missile crisis. It's very volatile and unstable. Every banker knows that every banker is guilty of some kind of AML offence, because it's impossible to work in finance and not be guilty. The laws are just that badly written. What's more, western governments know this too. Almost every big bank has been fined under AML laws in the past 20 years or so.

But American justice is extremely vicious (and it's in America where the whole idea of anti-money-laundering originated). Like many laws, AML offences can carry 20 year jail sentences.

If you mix 20 year sentences with "everyone is guilty" you have a situation that is like a minefield. If the government actually started prosecuting bankers under these laws, there's a risk they might win and that could be apocalyptic - it could trigger a collapse of the entire financial system as bankers exited the industry en-masse.

In the HSBC case, one part of the US Gov (either Treasury or DoJ, I forget which) actually did want to prosecute. The other part convinced them not to, using the above logic. The chance of successfully jailing a banker is high enough that they can't actually do so, lest it cause the industry to self destruct.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#34

The article (and the "Mafia Expert" it's about) are both idiotic. The premise is that because corruption involves money and money involves banks and London has lots of banks, transitively, London is very corrupt. It then tries to equate Mafia violence with financial firms refusing to hire 'whistleblowers', as if having your legs chopped off is in any way comparable to having a career issue. By similar logic, I could…

Go back to the definition of corruption before jumping the guns.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The premise is that because corruption involves money and money involves banks and London has lots of banks, transitively, London is very corrupt. I thought it was based on the premise that: London is the drug money laundering capital of the world and: 90 per cent of drug cash ends up in the US and Europe via London and: criminal corporate activities within the City of London which have dominated the headlines over…

The quote about a "100% success rate" is meaningless. It comes from here: According to our whistleblowing source, who has been asked to give evidence to the new Parliamentary Committee on Banking Standards, set up in the wake of the Libor scandal in June, banks tend to take a very dim view of employees who break ranks. "No risk manager wants to admit that he didn't do his job. So an unholy alliance of mutual self-int…

I wasn't addressing the veracity or otherwise of the "100% success rate" claim, I was using a different quote from the article that was linked, stating the UK's financial regulator told a whistleblower to not contact them again.

Here's another quote from it:

    Newsnight can reveal that not a single UK-
    based bank has ever been punished for firing
    a whistleblower within its ranks - even though
    these individuals are protected in law
Debating whether the UK is the worst or not, or whether financial firms have a 100% or perhaps merely just a 86.4% success rate at destroying honest people's lives and/or careers is a distraction.

The issue is that the UK has serious corruption and (organized) crime problems, seemingly tolerated (at best) at some of the highest levels in the UK.

However hyperbolic you may find the journalism to be, it's a lot more instructive and interesting than yet another bullshit list designed to show just how jolly honest and law abiding we are, compared to the developing world.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#36

The UK is the second country with the most intermediaries (banks, accountants, lawyers…) listed in the Panama papers. The first one is Hong Kong, a former British colony. "More than half of the companies listed in the leaked Mossack Fonseca documents are registered in the U.K. or its overseas territories [...] If we want to understand modern Britain, we first need to realize that our primary economic function in the…

You got it. If the world crushed The City working people everywhere would benefit. The City is a total cancer. As a Brit I'd love to see it removed, permanently.

Reported that the City's contribution UK's national income is about £45bn or 3%, while London accounts for £334bn or 22% of the UK's. But to what extent is that 22% dependent on the indirect effect of the City? Britain will certainly be poorer and poor people will likely be even poorer. You want to see it removed regardless of consequences?

Tax havens are the only defence against rapacious politicians who, unlike business people, do not suffer the ill effects of their policies. You can always get votes for promising bread and circuses! Do you think that's true or false? The enormous debt burdens we see across the world attest to that.

For those who enjoy looking at both sides: http://www.conservativehome.com//platform/2011/08/in-defence...

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#37

The article (and the "Mafia Expert" it's about) are both idiotic. The premise is that because corruption involves money and money involves banks and London has lots of banks, transitively, London is very corrupt. It then tries to equate Mafia violence with financial firms refusing to hire 'whistleblowers', as if having your legs chopped off is in any way comparable to having a career issue. By similar logic, I could…

If you hold a position of trust (elected politician, policeman, bureaucrat, CEO, board member, employee representative, union boss), and you use the powers of that position to further some private interest rather than the interests of those you are set to serve, then you're corrupt. That's more or less Transparency International's definition, and I agree with it. But banks' trustees aren't the public. It's their depo…

> Compared to other nations, Britain's public trustees probably aren't so bad at serving the interests of the public.

Dave & Co have probably been the worst offenders in recent recent years for selling public assets and companies they have nationalized to buddies of theirs at massively discounted prices, beginning with the RBS.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you feel about HSBC being convicted of money laundering? Do you feel that they were wrongly convicted based on the original definition of the term?

They were not convicted of anything, if you're referring to the Mexico/Iran story which I guess you are. You heard the US Government's side of the story. The USG agreed not to take the charges to court as long as HSBC accepted big fines and didn't say anything (i.e. didn't attempt to defend itself in public). So there was never any court case or any judicial process involved. If you hear only the government's story a…

The end-point of your logic is that bankers are too important to prosecute, which is obviously unacceptable.

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#39
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got it. If the world crushed The City working people everywhere would benefit. The City is a total cancer. As a Brit I'd love to see it removed, permanently.

Reported that the City's contribution UK's national income is about £45bn or 3%, while London accounts for £334bn or 22% of the UK's. But to what extent is that 22% dependent on the indirect effect of the City? Britain will certainly be poorer and poor people will likely be even poorer. You want to see it removed regardless of consequences? Tax havens are the only defence against rapacious politicians who, unlike bus…

The London figure is always trotted out. All accounting is done through London. Also counting money like this doesn't count "wealth". A bunch of people creating new money as credit actually soaks up wealth as the rest of the UK is forced to exchange actual labour and products for fiat money against ever increasing land prices.

Tax havens aren't bastions of freedom. Load of rubbish. They are allowing massive inequalities and letting rogues plunder common wealth.

Did Abmramovich personally add billions in value? Or did he claim he, not the Russian people, "owned" much of Russia's oil and then washed a good part of it through London property?

Re: Britain is the most corrupt country in the world?

#40

Spain, not UK, is by far the most corrupt country in Europe. High rank spanish politicians are involved in the Panama Papers.

Also british - Cameron's father (and probably Cameron, caught lying), non the less. EDIT Why the downvotes? Factually incorrect? Don't think so: http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/07/david-cameron-ad... You don't like it. Fine, but don't downvote it.

He ran a fund which was based in tax haven to avoid double taxation. Lots of funds do things like this. It's not corruption or criminal.
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