Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 251 posts

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#201

Post by damptowel »

gozur88 wrote: post #176
dionidium wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Basic income removes that harsh penalty" The real challenge of a basic income isn't how to pay for it; it's how to convince regular people who get up every day and go work at jobs a lot shittier than most of us here have that that's a harsh penalty. There is enormous social momentum behind the idea that you should work if you can.

>The real challenge of a basic income isn't how to pay for it... No, actually that's the real challenge, as the author of the article points out. We would have to raise taxes tremendously to give everyone a nontrivial amount (the numbers are in the article) even if we ended all current income redistribution programs. And we'd have to raise taxes even more than you'd think at first glance, since a whole lot of people…

But government spending within the national economy is not income constrained, so raising taxes is not a requirement.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#202

Post by prostoalex »

otterley wrote: post #23
nullsmack wrote: post #6

The very first argument in the article is flawed which leads me to wonder how much of it is or isn't flawed. It talks about a Universal Basic Income for everyone over 21.. then it complains that would cost 3 trillion dollars for all of the 300 million Americans. According to the Census Bureau as of 2015 there were 321 million Americans and 24% were under 18. No clue how many were under 21. But that still takes it dow…

Also: "A universal basic income has many undesirable features, starting with its nonnegligible disincentive to work." I can think of two responses to this: (1) Perhaps work that doesn't pay more than a UBI can provide is not work worth doing -- (2) Except for charity work, which is extremely valuable, and which would be greatly incentivized because having a UBI would free up people's time to work on it.

> Perhaps work that doesn't pay more than a UBI can provide is not work worth doing

This is a frequent argument invoked in favor of a higher minimum wage, and the answer is maybe.

But then you find out that some fairly useful work, such as running a convenience store or a corner bodega in a low-income neighborhood involves significantly lower margins than operating a Whole Foods or organic juicery in a ritzy residential neighborhood, and people start decrying "food deserts" http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/02/03/food-deserts-contin...

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#203

Post by T2_t2 »

jbob2000 wrote: post #28

Something that is missing from the basic income/poverty debate is the notion of "learned helplessness"; after a long time in poverty, people get used to the lifestyle and have difficulty adjusting to "regular" life. For example, if you've been homeless your entire life, you've never had to lock your apartment door or carry a key around. My partner (a social worker) had a client who's apartment was always getting robb…

But will it keep them from GETTING there? Isn't that the move important question?

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#204

Post by prutschman »

kefka wrote: post #138
refurb wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, considering ~40% of Americans pay no income tax, I'd say the top is paying more than their fair share?

Because total tax expenditures are far from just income tax. There's property taxes, vehicle taxes, gas taxes, "christian sin" taxes, lottery (which is a tax on stupid people), social security tax, medicare tax, sales tax, specific item/service sales tax, city taxes, county option taxes. And that's not even remotely the amount of taxes on businesses that raise the price of goods secretly to compensate the taxes hidde…

> lottery (which is a tax on stupid people),

The lottery is a tax on hope

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#205

Post by damptowel »

Here's a thought experiment I've been been wrestling with... Imagine a dirty low skill job. Something that currently doesn't pay much and is generally considered low status. Assume it's a job no one really wants to do but do because it pays them a living. What would happen to that job under UBI? I would assume that due to vacancies demand for people willing to do this work would go up, and companies would need to lure in applicants by raising pay. Imagine that would indeed attract workers. How would this affect that company? It's costs would rise. Will it become less competitive? Will it raise price? Would the sector have to be subsidized to stay afloat? Would it start some kind of 'moral revolution'? I imagine new coping mechanisms would need to be devised and the economy would morph into something quite unlike what we live under today.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#206

Post by prutschman »

refurb wrote: post #107
tomp wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes you think most land is owned through birthright? Any stats to back that up? I would assume most land was purchased. Purchased from whom? I would imagine a lot of land in the most desirable locations (cities etc) are owned by private individuals or family trusts/companies, so they have been/will be inherited (even if the owners change in between). And if it's owned by a corporation, I guess the same logic…

Living on a piece of land is rent seeking? I don't think you know what that word means.

Land being lived on by its owner is being used to live on, not for investment.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#207

Post by gozur88 »

damptowel wrote: post #201
gozur88 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The real challenge of a basic income isn't how to pay for it... No, actually that's the real challenge, as the author of the article points out. We would have to raise taxes tremendously to give everyone a nontrivial amount (the numbers are in the article) even if we ended all current income redistribution programs. And we'd have to raise taxes even more than you'd think at first glance, since a whole lot of people…

But government spending within the national economy is not income constrained, so raising taxes is not a requirement.

Then why do we have taxes at all?

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#208

Post by damptowel »

refurb wrote: post #59
RamshackleJ wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, and it doesn't even bother talking about the $21–32tn of untaxed assets( http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/upload/pdf/Price_of_Offshore_R... ). Or that we tax the rich too little while we tax everyone else too much to keep public perception focused on taxes being too high( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Historical_Marginal_... ).

Or that we tax the rich too little The top 3% of income earners pay 51% of all income taxes.[1] You think that's too little? What should that number be? [1] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/13/high-income-...

I guess the right amount would be, if you're democratically inclined, to whatever reduces political influence of the wealthy over the less wealthy. The current US distribution and it's political and economic destabilizing effects seem in favor of higher taxation on the top incomes.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#209

Post by damptowel »

gozur88 wrote: post #207
damptowel wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But government spending within the national economy is not income constrained, so raising taxes is not a requirement.

Then why do we have taxes at all?

Good question, what drives politicians I can only guess. Neoclassical economists have their heads buried firmly in the sand, preferring their a priori fantasies and pushing that as their agenda.

Taxes are good for creating currency demand (and large scale markets systems resulting from it), shaping incentives and income redistribution. It can also be used to put a brake on a bubble economy.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#210

Post by ck425 »

I hope Switzerland votes for UBI, it would be interesting to see actual data rather than just conjecture. The point about people losing the will to work is interesting, as he also makes the point that jobs give us purpose and structure in life. If money is no longer an issue, or less of an issue, people may choose to do jobs because they provide purpose and structure. It could also increase innovation. There have been lots of article on HN recently about the privileges white males have in terms of financial security, that make it safer to start businesses than non-white and non-males. UBI might allow more people to do this.

Another interesting aspect would be the economic effect of everyone having a minimum amount of money. I don't know enough about economic to say what the impact would be on basis good vs luxury goods and everything in between but I imagine it would have an effect.

Post reply on HN