Moving Forward on Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#831

Post by tianlins » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 6:35 AM UTC

xienze wrote: post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

One way is to think about BI as insurance. Then the emergency cases are averaged across the entire population. Joe's twelfth car break-down can be classified as "insurance fraud".

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#832

Post by pif » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 6:37 AM UTC

lewisl9029 wrote: post #804

The most compelling case I've seen made recently for basic income is from Yanis Varoufakis (the infamous Greek finance minister who resigned after refusing to agree to the terms of the bailout that the Greek people voted against in a referendum): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvgdtF3y0Ss There were many gems in that talk, but this one stood out to me in particular: "The right to turn down a job is essential for a w…

Comparing mafia and creditors is non-sense: mafia get their power from their choice to use unjustified violence, while creditors get their power from your choice to borrow in the first place.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#833

Post by woah » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 6:39 AM UTC

pif wrote: post #832

lewisl9029 wrote: post #804

The most compelling case I've seen made recently for basic income is from Yanis Varoufakis (the infamous Greek finance minister who resigned after refusing to agree to the terms of the bailout that the Greek people voted against in a referendum): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvgdtF3y0Ss There were many gems in that talk, but this one stood out to me in particular: "The right to turn down a job is essential for a w…

Comparing mafia and creditors is non-sense: mafia get their power from their choice to use unjustified violence, while creditors get their power from your choice to borrow in the first place.

Disagree with him if you want, but his entire point is that the lines between "their choice" and "your choice" are often blurred.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#834

Post by dang » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 6:42 AM UTC

eanzenberg wrote: post #812

If that were the case, then the dividens should be paid proportionally to the "collective" taxpayer... the ones who paid the most taxes... the wealthy. You totally don't get it and probably never will. Wealth isn't created equally and will never be. Do yourself a favor and read up on Venezuela.

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Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#835

Post by creadee » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 6:46 AM UTC

A lot of people around the world have been receiving old-age pensions for quite a while. Many are still healthy and able, with some of those working and some not.

Why will this study provide better data about how people will behave when given a basic income than the presumably huge amount of data available about how healthy people behave on a pension?

Working out how to plug a basic income into an economy, how to arrive at what it should be and how to transition an economy to include a basic income would be a better use resources.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#836

Post by psc » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 6:51 AM UTC

paul wrote: post #483

senseless wrote: post #253

Good to see steps like this being made! As a slight aside, there are strong proponents who argue, based on Ricardo's law of rent [0], that any excess income above the basic subsistence level will inevitably be swallowed up by landlords in the form of rents. I'd be very interested to hear from the folks involved in this study if they have an opinion on such an assertion, and if you have any ideas on addressing that ef…

That assumes a fixed supply of housing, which is only true in deeply dysfunctional places like SF. In most of the US, housing cost is close to replacement cost, so if landlords try to raise rents, people can just move someplace cheaper, especially since they are no longer dependent on a job to support themselves.

I think the GP is referring more specifically to Henry George Theorem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George_theorem). The theorem has pretty solid theoretical backing, so I don't see why it wouldn't apply to basic income. At the very least it's a good question to research.

My understanding is that all owners of would increase the rents/prices of their unimproved land, not just housing landlords. Everywhere you'd move is now more expensive by the same amount, because unimproved land is (mostly) fixed supply.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#837

Post by eru » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 6:52 AM UTC

creadee wrote: post #835

A lot of people around the world have been receiving old-age pensions for quite a while. Many are still healthy and able, with some of those working and some not. Why will this study provide better data about how people will behave when given a basic income than the presumably huge amount of data available about how healthy people behave on a pension? Working out how to plug a basic income into an economy, how to arr…

In Germany, I think, you can only get your state pension when you stop working? (Or at least, there are severe restrictions on working.)

But given these caveats, that probably exist similarly in other countries, it's a good field to study.

Of course, the social expectations on people on old-age pensions are quite different from the ones on the working-age population.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#838

Post by jokoon » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 6:54 AM UTC

Basic income, unfortunately, is not a problem of economics. You can argue for month about its viability, but ultimately, I think basic income is a problem of politics, because I can't see western governments and their representatives agreeing to change their systems to implement it. Reaganomics are still alive and well.

Basic income really sounds like one of those socialist counter weight, that, just like new deal policies, can make capitalism viable again, but I feel it will criticized for being some socialist measure. The end of the cold war is still too near.

It's more a concern of political belief than anything else. Of course economists and administration can argue about it, but in the political scene, I'm very pessimistic.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#839

Post by jeffdavis » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 6:56 AM UTC

qq66 wrote: post #825

lewisl9029 wrote: post #804

The most compelling case I've seen made recently for basic income is from Yanis Varoufakis (the infamous Greek finance minister who resigned after refusing to agree to the terms of the bailout that the Greek people voted against in a referendum): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvgdtF3y0Ss There were many gems in that talk, but this one stood out to me in particular: "The right to turn down a job is essential for a w…

The right to turn down all work, at an evolutionary level, is granted only to photosynthetic organisms.

So... let's make some solar panels and relax?

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#840

Post by youngButEager » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 6:57 AM UTC

This one is easy. Just ask everyone in the town one question:

"We're going to provide a basic income for you and everyone else. Now, what are your plans for work?"

Basic income will manufacture laziness.

As a homeless teen, when I received charitable handouts, it was humiliating. "Why am I so inferior that I can't provide my own stuff, and rely on others to support me?"

- makes you lazy - and paradoxically you begin to dislike the handout-givers -- "they probably think they're better than me because they're self-reliant and without them I have very poor prospects."

I turned things around by joining the military. Having handouts and not having to work was okay but it leads to resentment, and if you're not lucky enough to feel you're as good and worthy as the handout-givers, you start feeling worthless and stop trying.

Ever see signs in national parks warning "don't feed the animals" ? A lot of park-goers believe that's because human food is bad for the animals. That's only part of it.

The parks do not want the animals to become dependent on handouts. They want the animals to always get their food the normal way -- hunting for it, working for it. NOT getting handouts.

Once an animal (or a person) becomes accustomed to handouts, they stop working hard, or hunting/foraging in the animal case -- just wait for the handouts.