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Moving Forward on Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#721

Post by xienze »

_rpd wrote: post #261
daemonk wrote: post #227

So is this basically "pure" communism? I guess historically, countries we called communistic didn't really adhere to its central idea; or they couldn't do so practically due to the accompanied political/economic instability following regime change.

No. Communism requires abolition of private ownership. However, the hyperinflationary spiral resulting from BI could assist a transition to communism.

> However, the hyperinflationary spiral resulting from BI could assist a transition to communism.

Looks like you've identified the end game.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#722

Post by bcheung »

senseless wrote: post #253

Good to see steps like this being made! As a slight aside, there are strong proponents who argue, based on Ricardo's law of rent [0], that any excess income above the basic subsistence level will inevitably be swallowed up by landlords in the form of rents. I'd be very interested to hear from the folks involved in this study if they have an opinion on such an assertion, and if you have any ideas on addressing that ef…

I'm in favor of a much higher land tax and getting rid of income and capital gains taxes.

Taxing income and capital gains seems counter productive to me as it creates a penalty for working harder and investing. Those are activities that make individuals and society more prosperous.

Another possibility I think is worth exploring is having the government simply print money each year and use that to provide for services and basic income. That way we can get rid of the tax system entirely.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#723

Post by analyst74 »

ShellfishMeme wrote: post #333
Strilanc wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delivering the money in small chunks might help. Instead of 70$ every week, make it 5$ twice a day. So no matter how broke you were yesterday, you'll have enough money to eat in a few hours. Another "make it easy to get food even if you really screwed up" option might be to give grocery stores 'first dibs' on the money. Basically, let people spend the money a couple days in advance if they do it at a grocery store. A…

What if your washing machine breaks or your kids need new clothes or your car needs gas? It seems to me with this approach people would be stuck in perpetual poverty even more.

You use your savings to fix your washing machine, like how you do so if you are getting lump sum.

If someone is having trouble saving money with daily allowances, they will definitely not save money with monthly lump sums.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#724

Post by tehchromic »

One important component that should not be overlooked is how BI is tied to basic occupation. People do need something to do, no matter how automated the future becomes, and that thing ought to be something they are well adapted to do.

It should not be entirely left to chance. Unoccupied people will find every avenue for their unspent energy, and too easily this becomes competition, and conflict.

Farming is a good example of a pastime that is historically maligned yet immensely rewarding and pleasurable when done right.

Along with BI ought to be a very carefully structured form of basic income that allows people cultural engagement that is productive and sustainable.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#725

Post by gnaritas »

djrogers wrote: post #683
Namrog84 wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you miss the point of why we actually need BI research and one of the foundational reasons for it. I know predictions could be off. But if in 20 years there are simply no jobs available to 60% of the population. What are they gonna do? Just all starve to death? BI is the inevitable step towards a post scarcity society. When majority of people not only don't want to work but that there are simply no jobs for m…

> in 20 years there are simply no jobs available to 60% of the population Said people in the early 1800s. And early 1900s. Look, it's just not gonna happen. Jobs will change, but there will always be work for those willing to do it. You may not like the job - hell, you may not like your current job either - or it may be a better job than any that exists today. Look around you, how many of the jobs you see people doin…

> but there will always be work for those willing to do it.

No there won't, the past doesn't predict the future and post scarcity is a different problem than past automation. If you're looking to the past for examples, you don't understand the problem being discussed because the whole point is that automation is at a level that even white collar jobs are no longer immune and most people simply aren't going to be able to compete with machines at anything they're capable of doing.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#726

Post by danielweber »

softawre wrote: post #153
haaen wrote: post #133

The YCR statement says: "We think everyone should have enough money to meet their basic needs—no matter what, especially if there are enough resources to make it possible." Why give free money to people who are too lazy to work?

Too lazy to work? Or the economy can only support 100k jobs when we have 100 million people? Eventually the latter will be true.

There is plenty of work to be done.

When people talk about only having a limited number of jobs, I hear "tremendous waste." Don't fix that TV, throw it away. Don't bother sorting out the recyclables, throw it all away. Don't clean that, throw it away.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#727

Post by kcorbitt »

xienze wrote: post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

My personal idea of a solution is to make basic income a "stream" of income instead of a lump sum once or twice a month. We have the technology to make a transfer happen hourly, or even minute by minute. By apportioning the income in that way it becomes impossible to "blow all [your] money" to the point where you can't afford food, because if you just wait half an hour or whatever you'll have enough on your card again for a decent meal. Rent is a little more complicated because with our current system you're typically expected to pay a month or more up front, but there could be an opportunity to come up with new rent contracts and payment methods at the low end that are paid hourly or minutely instead of weekly or monthly, removing the need to save up to pay a lump sum.

There's actually nothing in this scheme that's tied to basic income either -- we could do this reform with existing entitlement payments today in a totally revenue-neutral way.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#729

Post by dmoy »

kcorbitt wrote: post #727
xienze wrote: post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

My personal idea of a solution is to make basic income a "stream" of income instead of a lump sum once or twice a month. We have the technology to make a transfer happen hourly, or even minute by minute. By apportioning the income in that way it becomes impossible to "blow all [your] money" to the point where you can't afford food, because if you just wait half an hour or whatever you'll have enough on your card agai…

There is a problem with that though. For instance, if you're on foodstamps right now, and gas is not cheap, or it's very time-expensive to make it to the grocery store too often, then you're making single large trips. A continuous stream doesn't gel as well with that situation. You'd need a more comprehensive solution, like getting rid of food deserts in poor areas.

Or at least, if you're going to do this, you'd have to be very careful to not overcorrect for the 1st of tha month problem.

Not to ding your overall idea, I like it, think it's very cool. Just, to implement it with current infrastructure it would require a lot of care.

(Actually also I think rent or other large payments are less of a problem in your solution than you think - for anything on contract like that, you could simply reduce the rate at which continuous income is obtained. If your basic income is 100 units per whatever, and your rent is 43% of your basic income, you just reduce the stream down to 57 units)

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#730

Post by tmalsburg2 »

tomp wrote: post #12

> In our pilot, the income will be unconditional; we’re going to give it to participants for the duration of the study, no matter what. This is omitting one crucial detail: for how long will the basic income last. At least for myself, my decisions would be completely different if I was to receive unconditional income for e.g. 10 years (or less), vs. for the rest of my life.

There is another problem with such a pilot. I think that many of the positive effects of BI will only be borne out in a society in which everyone has it, where a culture exists around the concept of BI, and where the society as a whole is involved in a discourse about its optimal use. If you are an isolated case, you will run into all kinds of obstacles, practical and psychological, and you will not be able to make good use of it. It's like giving smart phones to Neanderthals, it's not going to work although smart phones are actually a good idea.
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