Earlier quoted context omitted.
You'll find there are two voices for BI, the liberal and the liberatian. The liberal would prefer to keep universal healthcare and food programs and put cash on top, making the total distribution to the poor larger. The liberatian would prefer to simply move the complex paternalistic safety net into a simpler cash payment which doesn't disincentivize work while not increasing it's size. As an aside, if you pay attent…
Universal healthcare is simply more efficient. The NHS delivers the same outcomes (longevity, infant mortality, etc.) as the American health system at less than half the cost (healthcare spending / % GDP). Fully private provision of insurance for any events that follow a non-normal distribution (as most, but not all healthcare costs do) simply does not work, has never worked and will never work.
Moving Forward on Basic Income
661–670 of 1001 posts
Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income
#662So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…
Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income
#663If you are really serious about Basic Income, I strongly encourage you to look at the Kollel system within the ultra-orthodox/yeshiva communities (i.e. Lakewood, NJ) While their model is conditional, the framework for providing a stipend to cover basic necessities so the kollel members are free to study, is very similar. You will see a glimpse of what happens. There is amazing achievement, and there is abuse of the s…
And that is for a community with a strong ethical and moral standards.
If "people's true nature wins out" is the deciding factor in a larger experiment, I'd expect to see more abuse.
Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income
#664So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…
Personally, I'd hope the system would absolutely tell them "tough shit". There's got to be a line where the safety net gives out, because someone is too expensive to help. That's where family and charity hopefully take over. At the same time, I think your instinct is right, and it's something I've never heard mentioned before. It's almost inevitably that there'll then be the "food security" fund, and the "housing gua…
Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income
#665The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.
Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income
#666Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unemployment insurance is not BI. BI goes to everyone, Unemployment insurance only goes to people who aren't working legally. Unemployment insurance reduces the incentive to work because it pays people to not work. It similarly incentivizes black market labor. BI does not do that. It does (if we get replace minimum wage with basic income) allow people to do work that pays nothing or very little. However, I would see…
It does allow people to do work that pays nothing or very little. However, I would see that as boosting overall economic productivity That's a contradiction. Productivity is defined as output divided by hours worked. Output is defined roughly as "sales of things that people want". Putting aside market failures for a moment, work that pays nothing is very often work that nobody wants done. There are lots of people who…
I used the wrong word, I meant 'overall economic production'. Economic participation is falling during this "recovery", and that is not just due to baby boomers aging: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-is-the-real-unemplo...
> work that pays nothing is very often work that nobody wants done
I disagree, but I think this disagreement boils down to underlying problems I see with the ways in which we tend to measure economic output and GDP.
If I write a poem that brings me no pleasure and I sell it to you, and you write a poem that brings you no pleasure and you sell it to me. That "counts" as economic productions. However, if I write a poem that brings me pleasure and you write a poem that brings you pleasure and nothing is sold, the same value is produced but it doesn't "count" towards economic production.
You may not like poetry, but there are tons of other examples:
Grandparents who babysit their grandchildren, people who fix their own cars, people who grow and cook their own food, people who write open source software, people who volunteer with non-profits, the list goes on and on.
> At some level the notion of productive work must be tied to an exchange of goods or services or else the phrase becomes kind of meaningless.
While it is hard to measure productive work that isn't tied to the exchange of goods or services, that doesn't make that work meaningless, nor does it mean it has no value.
Conversely, I would argue that there is a large amount of "unproductive work" or "busy work" that doesn't really produce value, but does involve the exchange of goods and services. Specific examples are controversial, but some potential ones are: fighting frivolous lawsuits, political fundraising, defensive patents, and many types of advertising.
see: https://medium.com/basic-income/basic-income-meaningless-job...
I think many of these many of these jobs provide "competitive advantage" in marketplace but produce little to no actual value to society. Every corporation needs someone doing these jobs so they can stay competitive, but it ends up becoming an arms race of economic waste.
My hope is that by reducing the necessity of work that get paid well, we are able to start weeding out some of the BS work and enabling people to do more of the less/un paid work that produces hard to measure value.
I think we should accomplish this by incrementally phasing in basic income pair with gradually phasing out minimum wage. Each increment should happen at the start of a recession so the the increase in government spending on BI paired with the availability of cheaper labor (due to lower minimum wage) can prompt growth and shorten the recession.
Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income
#667What amazes me in this discussion about BI is that most people don't seem to realize that systems similar to BI have already been tried in Europe, and that they didn't work. I come from the Netherlands, which has always had unemployment benefits. Nowadays you get those only if you meet a bunch of strict conditions but it hasn't always been so tough. In the early eighties, there were almost no checks whatsoever. The r…
What I've found here on HN is that there is an extremely large amount of "wishful projection" and selection bias, in that many people here are young and promising entrepreneurs-in-training, and they believe that basic income will allow them to work on their startup dream without having to worry about paying the bills. While that may be true, they fail to realize that they are in the extreme minority of actually-motiv…
Perhaps I'm underestimating the issue, but isn't there already today a sizeable chunk of the population in the world that does nothing or close to nothing, but still enjoys a good quality of life? Some people have the drive to work and create things, others are content with just consuming and making families; we have always had that, the only difference is that BI would make life easier for the latter group, but it doesn't strike to me as something that would radically change society as a whole.
Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income
#668Earlier quoted context omitted.
So I gave an example of a liberal unemployment system which didn't work because it became too expensive. And your reply is that it doesn't apply to BI, because BI not only pays to people who don't work, but also to those who do work. Doesn't this mean that BI will be even more expensive?
"Expensive" is terrible when talking about programs like this. This is not military spending - it isn't money just sucked out of the economy to effectively be dumped off a cliff with no economic return on investment (yes, military spending has a tiny rate of ROI, that doesn't change how absurdly inefficient an R&D program it is compared to, say, NASA). In a zero-overhead UBI system where you used existing databases t…
Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income
#669Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many of those cases are about law and order and not necessarily welfare. I do not see CPS as a welfare organization.
Law and order responds after the wrong. I'm talking about protection to prevent the wrong.
Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income
#670What amazes me in this discussion about BI is that most people don't seem to realize that systems similar to BI have already been tried in Europe, and that they didn't work. I come from the Netherlands, which has always had unemployment benefits. Nowadays you get those only if you meet a bunch of strict conditions but it hasn't always been so tough. In the early eighties, there were almost no checks whatsoever. The r…
What I've found here on HN is that there is an extremely large amount of "wishful projection" and selection bias, in that many people here are young and promising entrepreneurs-in-training, and they believe that basic income will allow them to work on their startup dream without having to worry about paying the bills. While that may be true, they fail to realize that they are in the extreme minority of actually-motiv…