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Moving Forward on Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

601–610 of 1001 posts

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll find there are two voices for BI, the liberal and the liberatian. The liberal would prefer to keep universal healthcare and food programs and put cash on top, making the total distribution to the poor larger. The liberatian would prefer to simply move the complex paternalistic safety net into a simpler cash payment which doesn't disincentivize work while not increasing it's size. As an aside, if you pay attent…

Universal healthcare is simply more efficient. The NHS delivers the same outcomes (longevity, infant mortality, etc.) as the American health system at less than half the cost (healthcare spending / % GDP). Fully private provision of insurance for any events that follow a non-normal distribution (as most, but not all healthcare costs do) simply does not work, has never worked and will never work.

"Universal healthcare is simply more efficient. The NHS delivers the same outcomes (longevity, infant mortality, etc.) as the American health system at less than half the cost (healthcare spending / % GDP)"

This is completely false.

Both 'longevity' and 'infant mortality' are absolutely not measures if the quality of the healthcare system.

I've lived in Canada, US, Germany, France.

The best healthcare system is by far the US - however - it's very expensive, and it doesn't cover everyone, which are both big problems.

The quality of care for those who are covered in the US is unrivalled.

Of course, don't get the wrong insurance, you could be out o luck, and out on the street ...

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#602
post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

The best solution I can think of to counter people blowing all their money is to trickle the money to an account, instead of giving it to them as a single fat paycheck every month. So if instead of giving them $1500/30days, give them $50 a day or maybe $25/day and a $750 "rent stipend" bulk at the end, so that they can't blow more than a certain amount a day unless they've been actively saving. This encourages the be…

Isn't 'a $750 "rent stipend" bulk at the end' an essentially direct redistribution of social wealth into the hands of those who don't necessarily need it?

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#603
post #90

> Although basic income seems fiscally challenging today, in a world where technology replaces existing jobs and basic income becomes necessary, technological improvements should generate an abundance of resources and the cost of living should fall dramatically. I am 100% for this experiment. But the assumption that technology will replace basic jobs seems naive. Throughout human history, we have seen rapid and accel…

> I am 100% for this experiment. But the assumption that technology will replace basic jobs seems naive. Throughout human history, we have seen rapid and accelerating technology improvements. Arguments from "but this is how it always have been" have a tendency to break down when significant societal/technological changes happen.

The argument is not an unconditional "this is how it always has been". The argument is that the signs that significant societal/technological change is happening right now are the same as we've seen before, many times, where decrease in jobs turned out not to be one of the changes that actually happened: https://timeline.com/robots-have-been-about-to-take-all-the-...

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#604

We basically already have Basic Income in Denmark. We have "kontanthjælp" which in practise everyone, without an income qualifies for. Kontanthjælp pays 2.181 USD a month, and on top of that you can get help with rent etc.

> Which in practise everyone, without an income qualifies for.

The concept of universal basic income typically removes that qualifier - everyone, regardless of income, qualifies for it.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#605

If you are really serious about Basic Income, I strongly encourage you to look at the Kollel system within the ultra-orthodox/yeshiva communities (i.e. Lakewood, NJ) While their model is conditional, the framework for providing a stipend to cover basic necessities so the kollel members are free to study, is very similar. You will see a glimpse of what happens. There is amazing achievement, and there is abuse of the s…

"ultra-orthodox/yeshiva communities"

Ultro Orthodox Jews / Mennonites etc. have a very strong set of social rules, and very conservative behavioural expectations.

You can't compare someone in such a community to the American population at large.

The 'ethos' in a religious community centres around faith, family, duty, responsibility.

In America, it's 'personal aspiration'.

They can hardly be used as an experimental basis.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#606
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost all of the _basic_ needs of a human, i.e. those that we received 50,000 years ago, could be provided for $1-$2k a year Can you explain this? Basic needs include shelter, clothing, and food, which together cost much more than $1-$2k.

A tent, a pair or two of clothing, and meals of rice/beans/vegetables can be provided for less than $2k/year. A life comparable to this, but requiring more work, has been and continues to be lived by hundreds of millions.

> [basic necessities] can be provided for less than $2k/year.

I'm going to assume that this means "provided for approximately $2k/year". In any case, the value of that number isn't an argument against UBI, but rather, the amount UBI should be set at. Maybe the right value is $2k/person/year.

> Basic needs? Everyone in America has their basic needs.

Given that there are adults in the U.S.A. who earn less than $2k/year, there must be people who are either not getting their basic needs met, or are getting them met only through welfare programs.

> A tent, a pair or two of clothing, and meals of rice/beans/vegetables

Assuming this was the minimum, you also need a plot of land in which you can legally stake your tent - a pretty big problem for homeless today. The rent on this land also factors in to the necessary price per person per year.

In my personal opinion, I'd say the full set of human needs includes food, shelter, hygiene, health care, companionship, and the opportunity for self-improvement/advancement. Food and shelter you've covered, companionship can be free, and hygiene doesn't have to cost much of anything.

In our current society, an opportunity for self-improvement depends on education, reasonable transportation to economically viable areas, and communication technology (such as phone or internet).

None of these things are necessarily extremely expensive, at the bare-bones, no-luxuries level. The overall cost might be a little more than $2k/person/year, it isn't necessarily as high as $10k/person/year.

In any case, I expect that providing someone who doesn't have these things (food, shelter, hygiene, and opportunity for self-improvement) will cause an non-zero-sum increase in happiness, and right now, there are people who don't have all of these things.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#608
post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

No one is saying that the idea is to immediately and completely dismantle the current welfare system.

It seems to me that the general idea is that current welfare systems, at least in the US, are piecemeal at best. There are many, many people who slip through the cracks because they don't know help is available or are unable to navigate the various bureaucracies well enough to get the help they need. Many others refuse to even ask for help because they don't want to admit how poor their position is or they want to avoid the humiliation of asking for help and being turned down. Basic income eliminates that problem because it is applied equally to everyone. On top of that, it will create enormous social pressure for people to spend their money wisely.

I think the concern about people blowing their money is valid, and it will happen, as it has with our current system. There will always be a few people trying to get over. That being said, I think that our current system does a lot to create these people. Try genuinely asking for help, only to be told that you are an idiot, an incompetent, and a freeloader. It's not hard to see how that sort of humiliation can breed resentment, which can lead to people misusing their welfare benefits out of spite or hopelessness.

That being said, I strongly feel that BI can do a lot to minimize welfare abuse. For most working people it won't be too much of a stretch to build up an emergency fund, and, for many, the extra money would mean the difference between living paycheck to paycheck and being able to actually build a savings. Also, for many working people (i.e. walmart employees), 10k is the difference between self sufficiency and living on food stamps, with all the arcane requirements that entails. By filtering out these good people (for lack of a better term) it will be much easier to assess whether the people asking for further assistance are in genuine need, mentally ill, drug abusers, physically disabled, or just fiscally irresponsible. From there, it will be much easier to provide these people with more comprehensive assistance based on their needs, be it personal finance classes, assisted living, drug treatment, housing placement, etc.

From there, the idea is that we can streamline the current welfare system by eliminating more general programs in favor of more direct and targeted assistance. Obviously that's not going to be all that easy to do, given the quagmire that is our current welfare system, but I don't think it's an insurmountable problem.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best solution I can think of to counter people blowing all their money is to trickle the money to an account, instead of giving it to them as a single fat paycheck every month. So if instead of giving them $1500/30days, give them $50 a day or maybe $25/day and a $750 "rent stipend" bulk at the end, so that they can't blow more than a certain amount a day unless they've been actively saving. This encourages the be…

Isn't 'a $750 "rent stipend" bulk at the end' an essentially direct redistribution of social wealth into the hands of those who don't necessarily need it?

The beauty of the (universal) basic income notion is the elimination of needs assessment, morality, judgement.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#610
post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

Given how bad Americans are at planning for retirement, I think you're right. BI is a terrible idea.

BI would be for everyone, so pensioners would get it too. They'd probably be better off.

Plus, people wouldn't need to save for retirement if they didn't want to. They could spend more which would provide a stimulus to economic activity. That's another benefit of BI.

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