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Moving Forward on Basic Income

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Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#551
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, can you really have BI without universal health care?

Yes, of course. Universal health care coverage (read: insurance) can't be used to buy groceries or pay rent. Basic income will never be enough to pay for somebody's cancer treatments. Neither one is a substitute for the other; both are extremely beneficial.

Currently under the PPACA you cannot be denied insurance for prexisting conditions, and it is reasonable to expect pegging UBI to just poverty + cost of bronze single person plan in your area rather than implementing universal healthcare.

Not trying to argue it isn't cheaper to cut out the insane middle men in the healthcare industry, or that the current insurance system works at all (deductibles cost society incredible amounts of money and time because people won't go to the doctor until they are dying because of the unsubsidized costs) but if your goal is to have everyone insured, fed, and sheltered you can do that with just the cash payments while just enduring a disastrously inefficient and harmful healthcare system besides it.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#552
"Pay up, Mortimer, I won the bet."

"Here. One Dollar"

From the vantage point I have in my union job and my part time job at a very large retailer with low wage hourly workers, there is no way rich people give away their money. At least without wanting something in return. That point is rock solid and not changeable. You don't get something for nuttin.

Having some that get BI and some not in a community will create a BIpolar environment. Real emotions exist.. I can only imagine when couple A gets 5 years worth of money and single person B living down the road does not. Or Whatever. There has to be some catch.

But this is real and not Trading Places. I wonder what the bet is and I wonder what the dollar will be?

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#553
post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

I would lean towards the "tough shit" method. Although, if it was paid bi-monthly they would only be screwed for 2 weeks. Not long enough to realistically have any life threatening consequences. They would learn pretty quick. Maybe even do weekly.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Participants' financial health, including savings and ability to weather economic shocks, is one of the key outcomes we'll be examining.

How about mental health? It seems that a large portion of the very poor / homeless is caused not directly by poverty, but indirectly by poor decisions caused by mental health issues. Obviously BI is not a fix for the health care system, but how do you propose that BI should address people that don't really have "legal capacity" to make decisions on their own ? Do you support paying BI to some dedicated caregiver inst…

Poverty can also cause mental illness. There are plenty of studies on how children raised poor and hungry have developmental issues both physically and mentally, and how even adults who transition into poverty can become trapped in it and have their thought patterns altered through it.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if your washing machine breaks or your kids need new clothes or your car needs gas? It seems to me with this approach people would be stuck in perpetual poverty even more.

> What if your washing machine breaks or your kids need new clothes or your car needs gas? paying out nightly would be better for the "car needs gas" and really no worse of the other two. Many families are going to take a hit on major repairs. I assume we are talking about the same amount of money as the single monthly check divided up my payment days.

If you get all your money at once you can always have a buffer for these unexpected things. You also have more freedom to waste it all at once, but I don't believe most poor families are really that wasteful. It's just hard to get by. If you get your monthly check divided up, you can't first resolve the situation and then figure out how to deal with it financially. You have to wait. That might be the difference between making it to a job interview or not, or buying medicine for your kid when it needs it.

If you start coming up with extra cases for when it's urgent and you can get a bigger payout, you're again complicating the system and adding extra bureaucracy where part of the idea is that the simplicity of the system compared to classic welfare systems is what makes it more affordable and allows to give bigger monthly payouts.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I'd hope the system would absolutely tell them "tough shit". There's got to be a line where the safety net gives out, because someone is too expensive to help. That's where family and charity hopefully take over. At the same time, I think your instinct is right, and it's something I've never heard mentioned before. It's almost inevitably that there'll then be the "food security" fund, and the "housing gua…

A "payday loan" usurer would be all too happy to lend someone $1000 in cash, and then take $50 out of each of the next 52 weekly BI checks. I don't see a way to BI without significant buy in from Dept. of Agriculture and Dept. of HHS to provide some of the value of benefit as actual food and as gratis-rent, subsidized-utilities housing. Moving 100% of the benefit as cash leaves too much opportunity for middlemen to t…

> I don't see a way to BI without significant buy in from Dept. of Agriculture and Dept. of HHS to provide some of the value of benefit as actual food and as gratis-rent, subsidized-utilities housing.

HHS doesn't provide gratis-rent, subsidized-utilities housing without BI. Section 8 is subsidized-rent (and even so has long waiting lists and behavioral controls, so that many people that are income qualified for it don't receive it.)

> Moving 100% of the benefit as cash leaves too much opportunity for middlemen to take a cut.

Actually, it eliminates lots of the opportunities for middle men to take cuts (starting with government bureaucrats and government contractors.)

> The ways to do that range from straight-up charging you interest on advance loans secured by the benefit

So, just make contracts to secure loans by UBI benefit void as contrary to public policy. You can pay people from the benefit, you can contract to pay people from the benefit, you can't provide a lien on the benefit to secure a loan, because the benefit cannot legally be seized from you.

> to charging slightly more for the goods and services typically consumed by poor people.

Price increases are an expected market effect that drive increased quantity supplied. It's not a bad thing.

> So I don't see the same magnitude of cost savings as the idea-evangelists do. If anything, government payroll would probably expand in the short term, as it builds the infrastructure to provide non-cash benefits to citizens.

Yes, in a phase-in approach that phases out other programs using eligibility calculations (where UBI counts as part of income) rather than a slash-and-burn implementation where UBI immediately replaces other programs, in the short term you'd have an additional program office with only caseload related reductions in the administration of other programs, until the UBI reached a level that entire programs could be eliminated because it became impossible to qualify for them.

> BI would have to assemble 300 million fungible daily ration packages and truck them to distribution centers sized and located appropriately for the needs of the population.

No, the whole point of BI is that its just money. "fungible daily ration packs" are not being built and trucked, monthly fixed-amount benefit checks are delivered (or electronically deposited.) [0]

People use the money to buy services in the market.

> Just moving the money around is not going to be enough to satisfy the need. If all you do is cut checks, it may take decades for the supply chain to adapt, if ever.

If you use a ramp-up UBI and phase-out of other programs (which is the only way you get the short-term surge of government workers you talk about), the supply chain can adapt slowly, and its not a program.

> Food stamps have existed for a long time, and we still see "food deserts" in lower-income neighborhoods.

Arguably, the restrictions around food stamps and the administrative cost of dealing with them contributes to that problem.

> Even the promise of having a local monopoly on rent-seeking the free government money has not motivated food distributors to set up shop in otherwise unprofitable areas.

Food deserts typically do not have no food stores, or even no food stores that sell some things that qualify for government food benefits. There are lots of specific concrete definitions used to identify food deserts, and they tend to focus on local availability of particular variety of selections or prices of particular options.

Most food deserts have some (often small) food-selling stores, including ones that accept government food benefits.

[0] Incidentally, a universal basic banking service would be a useful side-program along with UBI, reducing the problem of the unbanked.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#557
post #447

I wanted to write a comment a la "Who is going to work at Starbucks if they don't need to earn their rent" - but then I realized that those jobs might go away very soon. And what then? I don't want to live in a world with 70% of the population losing a large portion of their growth potential (bc of unaffordable education, healthcare, even housing).

Something that is always surprising me when visiting the US, as a Scandinavian, is how many employees there are in a given shop (or coffee bar :). I don't think a Starbucks/shops/coffee bars needs as many people to operate as there often (in my experience) are in the US (at least in the 10 different cities/places or so I have been to on the east & west-coast/mid-west).

Assuming Scandi baristas are about as efficient as their colleagues over the pond, it is probably the time to complete a coffee-transaction that suffers, though, as with software development, I am not sure if throwing more people at the problem necessarily solves it quicker.

As an example, I remember one time, when I was waiting for a coffee (in the US) and there were no less than 5 employees more or less just hanging out discussing something more important than making my flat-white-double-soy-extra-machiato-caramel-coffee-like-beverage (which I could mean sarcastically, but I don't since I was waiting for a flight and not in a particular hurry) for a pretty good amount of time.

I suppose you could arrest me on this being my own experience (and you wouldn't be wrong), but I am feel confident that there must be some numbers that back them up because the difference is so flaggerant.

Apparently unemployment rates are as high or higher in Sweden for example, so there should be as high a demand for jobs at Starbucks here (in the case profits suffers from this). Intuitively I think that you'd rather hold off, take the well-fare and wait/prepare for a good job than taking one at Starbucks if you got a (good) education. This in turn (again my hypothesis), has made it the norm for that relative extra minute (or whatever) for coffees in Scandinavia, thus that job (as barista number 5) doesn't exist here at all. The price of a barista would also be higher, because it is harder to fill those positions. Which also makes changes the margins on how much more sales the barista number 5 would need generate for it to be profitable.

In any case, finally, commenting on the comment above :) I think that, in some places, many of those jobs do not exist (anymore) and it is still pretty OK to live here...

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I'd hope the system would absolutely tell them "tough shit". There's got to be a line where the safety net gives out, because someone is too expensive to help. That's where family and charity hopefully take over. At the same time, I think your instinct is right, and it's something I've never heard mentioned before. It's almost inevitably that there'll then be the "food security" fund, and the "housing gua…

You'll find there are two voices for BI, the liberal and the liberatian. The liberal would prefer to keep universal healthcare and food programs and put cash on top, making the total distribution to the poor larger. The liberatian would prefer to simply move the complex paternalistic safety net into a simpler cash payment which doesn't disincentivize work while not increasing it's size. As an aside, if you pay attent…

I agree with universal healthcare being separate from BI. I would also favor all of this being a kind of hybrid federal-local system. I'd also be receptive to having minimums. Like a minimum amount of basic healthcare (rather than unlimited). Also, for housing, give people a fair chance at finding a job wherever they got laid of from their previous longest term relevant job, but if they fail, move the resources to a more affordable area (after say, two years). Food, provide very basics (avoiding starvation) anything above these minimums would be covered by BI.

Why? Because some people will succumb to bad decisions and I'd rather the consequences be softened by a set of minimums.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll find there are two voices for BI, the liberal and the liberatian. The liberal would prefer to keep universal healthcare and food programs and put cash on top, making the total distribution to the poor larger. The liberatian would prefer to simply move the complex paternalistic safety net into a simpler cash payment which doesn't disincentivize work while not increasing it's size. As an aside, if you pay attent…

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to disagree with you on Libertarian philosophy. Anarcho-Capitalists are not in the business of advocating that we take money, in the form of taxes, from one group to give it to another.

Anarcho-capitalists are a subset of libertarians, and one which may not overlap much with the subset that sees UBI as a preferred alternative to current programs.

But "anarcho-capitalists do not..." is not a basis for any generalization about libertarians.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#560
post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll find there are two voices for BI, the liberal and the liberatian. The liberal would prefer to keep universal healthcare and food programs and put cash on top, making the total distribution to the poor larger. The liberatian would prefer to simply move the complex paternalistic safety net into a simpler cash payment which doesn't disincentivize work while not increasing it's size. As an aside, if you pay attent…

As a left libertarian I fall firmly in the camp you call "liberal", for the reason that provisioning about universal healthcare is not just about cost, but about liberty. If one sees protection of life as a moral imperative - because without life there can't be any liberty - then allowing someone to purchase priority over those who need healthcare most is already morally dicey; allowing them to do so without ensuring…

Liberty is about having a choice.

Being taken care of is security. They are completely different concepts.

If you are given liberty you can still make foolish choices that lead to a loss of life or shortening of your life.

Also, if someone else is forced to provide for the other person they definitely don't have liberty, they are basically a slave to another person.

A basic income system like that proposed by Georgists,Geo-Libertarians, and I think Thomas Paine (Agrarian Justice) is compatible with both left and right libertarian views.

The right to life is a moral imperative, but the protection of life is something completely different and is a slippery slope.

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