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BBC Micro:bit computer now available to all for £13

engadget.com

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Re: BBC Micro:bit computer now available to all for £13

#31

Post by kazinator »

ggambetta wrote: post #25

So it has leds. Is this enough to get kids interested in computers and programming? I have the feeling that they would need something where the distance between what they can do as users and as developers is much smaller. Otherwise they still may not see it as "the same thing". The iPad will still be an opaque thing they use to consume content. I'm coming from growing up in the 80s with a ZX Spectrum. The distance be…

> fails to convey the idea that "using" and "programming" are not separate things

Bravo. It just makes no sense: in 1980 you could have a tiny device you could program on that device itself. In 2016, you have to use a PC with an IDE, without which it is just a brick. Where is the progress?

An interactive programming language on that phone or tablet is better.

On the other hand, this separation between using and programming is good for teaching embedded development; but the focus of that should be the surrounding tinkering: we program the device, and it fits into some context where it does something on its own as part of something else. The program isn't the whole project, and the device isn't the whole system.

It doesn't have to be either/or; an embedded device can be interactively programmable somehow.

As far as hooking up to a PC goes, there should be a dumb serial interface, which is just a way to have a better keyboard and bigger screen: but all the interaction going on within the device rather than "build image, upload, flash, reboot".

Re: BBC Micro:bit computer now available to all for £13

#32

Post by jack12 »

pawadu wrote: post #12
scoot wrote: post #9

"While the BBC micro:bit has Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) hardware it only has 16k of RAM. The BLE stack alone takes up 12k RAM which means there’s not enough room to (currently) run MicroPython. Future versions of the device may come with 32k RAM which would be sufficient. However, until such time it’s highly unlikely MicroPython will support BLE." [1] That's a shame. I mean, I know it can be accessed by programming t…

That would increase the price significantly since they would need to move to nordicsemis new M4 devices. And yes, 16K RAM is pretty huge by segment standards. Your best chance is if someone can optimize the BLE stack to use less RAM. After all, people have written ipv6 stacks that need a fraction of that.

The nrf51 is available with 32K RAM, but only in combination with 256K of flash, designated with the AC suffix (AA: 16K/256K, AB:16K/128K, AC:32K/256K). The 32K chip has been shipping on Adafruit's boards for a while, and is now even shipping on some of the generic Chinese dev boards and modules, so I assume it's widely available.

I imagine the main reason for going with the cheaper chip is that micropython was a pretty late entry to the list of supported coding environments, and the hardware was probably already pretty settled before the port started. Also BLE+4K of ram is probably usable in the other official (compiled) languages, and micropython does otherwise work aside from something that's a fairly advanced feature. So it would have been a tough sell increasing the cost of every board when most students and lesson plans will never use BLE and there are other languages available if they do want it/need it.

Re: BBC Micro:bit computer now available to all for £13

#33

Post by stestagg »

IshKebab wrote: post #3

Not a bad price compared to other nRF51 boards, but I wish they'd included a coin cell holder. Btw the best way to program these (if you want to do it the 'real' way) is using Yotta. http://yottadocs.mbed.com/tutorial/tutorial.html You can get started really quickly: 1. Install yotta 2. Start->Run Yotta 3. mkdir mything 4. cd mything 5. yt init 6. Paste some code in source/main.cpp 7. yt target bbc-microbit-gcc 8. yt…

Until you need to debug the toolchain, or change something other than the app source code, then you're digging through a chain of:

Make > Yotta > Cmake > Ninja > GCC

I've been through this fun, and it's just not worth the fun.

On a related note, The micropython stack for the microbit is currently:

Bare metal > mBed HAL > microbit-dal > micropython_hal > micropython

so three hardware abstraction layers! and this is on a device with only 16k RAM. Now Damien did a great job on getting micropython ported so quickly, but there /must/ be a better long-term solution to the mBed/yotta approach.

Re: BBC Micro:bit computer now available to all for £13

#34

Post by TD-Linux »

jackhack wrote: post #15
scoot wrote: post #9

"While the BBC micro:bit has Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) hardware it only has 16k of RAM. The BLE stack alone takes up 12k RAM which means there’s not enough room to (currently) run MicroPython. Future versions of the device may come with 32k RAM which would be sufficient. However, until such time it’s highly unlikely MicroPython will support BLE." [1] That's a shame. I mean, I know it can be accessed by programming t…

respectfully, that's missing the point. The beauty of the BBC Micro is the stark hardware specification -- the limits are the point. That scarcity leads to different usage, different behavior, different learning patterns. If one wants to go poking around with modern languages, multi-tier applications, color-coding IDEs, etc. there is no shortage of modern computers available. But instead, if one wishes to learn the f…

I agree that the BBC Micro would be a great learning computer. The gap between a hobby program and commercial software is small - you don't get the training wheels feeling as with some other environments. Unfortunately the Micro:bit is not self hosting and not at all a suitable replacement for the BBC Micro, in my opinion.

Re: BBC Micro:bit computer now available to all for £13

#35

Post by yitchelle »

ggambetta wrote: post #25

So it has leds. Is this enough to get kids interested in computers and programming? I have the feeling that they would need something where the distance between what they can do as users and as developers is much smaller. Otherwise they still may not see it as "the same thing". The iPad will still be an opaque thing they use to consume content. I'm coming from growing up in the 80s with a ZX Spectrum. The distance be…

I agree with you. For a kid, this is not a computer. It is a bit of green plastic thing that blinks. You even need a "real" computer to get it do something on it.

Maybe, we can load this thing up with something that will boot up into Basic, Logo, or Pascal. All the kid have to do is connect a monitor and keyboard to it.

I grew up using an Atari 800 with a cassette tape drive connected to my TV. I switched it on and have fun coding.

Re: BBC Micro:bit computer now available to all for £13

#36

Post by aexaey »

Fair number of commenters here justifiably laments over Micro:bit not resembling a "real" computers despite matching and exceeding specs of ZX-Spectum and other late 70s - early 80s microcomputers. Fair enough, good point.

But consider this: we have quite a lot of those "not quite computers" a.k.a. microcontrollers around us nowadays - there is one in a washing machine, several in a car, complete with a network to talk to each other [1], etc... Many are to be found in quite unexpected places: inside an SD card [2], in every PC keyboard, in a bluetooth headset, inside your phone's touchscreen controller [3], or same phone's wifi/bluetooth chip, etc..

Would it maybe be a good thing to expose kids (and adults alike) to a general idea of having deeply embedded turing-complete devices, together with giving some hands-on experience with them?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus

[2] http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3554

[3] http://www.atmel.com/products/touchsolutions/touchscreens/

Re: BBC Micro:bit computer now available to all for £13

#37

Post by StringyBob »

IshKebab wrote: post #3

Not a bad price compared to other nRF51 boards, but I wish they'd included a coin cell holder. Btw the best way to program these (if you want to do it the 'real' way) is using Yotta. http://yottadocs.mbed.com/tutorial/tutorial.html You can get started really quickly: 1. Install yotta 2. Start->Run Yotta 3. mkdir mything 4. cd mything 5. yt init 6. Paste some code in source/main.cpp 7. yt target bbc-microbit-gcc 8. yt…

> but I wish they'd included a coin cell holder.

I've seen a few reports online* mentioning this was specifically removed. Given the target market (11 year olds, many of whom are likely to have younger siblings) exposed coin cell batteries are a potential risk the BBC had to consider and chose to avoid. I do wonder what the cost of a basic plastic case would be.

* http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/07/bbc_microbit_final_s...

Re: BBC Micro:bit computer now available to all for £13

#38

Post by AstroJetson »

I've recently become a fan of the Adafruit Circuit Playground (https://www.adafruit.com/product/3000) they are about the same cost, have more LED and inputs (temp, sound tilt, touch) No bluetooth, but uses USB. Has a connection for a lipo battery connection. I think when the :bit was planned it would have been cool, but with the other stuff around for close to that price I think it's a miss.

Re: BBC Micro:bit computer now available to all for £13

#39

Post by technomancy »

gunmania0 wrote: post #24
scoot wrote: post #9

"While the BBC micro:bit has Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) hardware it only has 16k of RAM. The BLE stack alone takes up 12k RAM which means there’s not enough room to (currently) run MicroPython. Future versions of the device may come with 32k RAM which would be sufficient. However, until such time it’s highly unlikely MicroPython will support BLE." [1] That's a shame. I mean, I know it can be accessed by programming t…

Why does the fact it can't run micropython and BLE at the same time put BLE out of reach?

The point is you want to be able to program on the board rather than having it be useless without attaching it to a PC. For that you need both IO and an onboard compiler or interpreter.

MicroPython is right out; it would almost fit Lua, but as it is it looks like your only option for independent development would be Forth.

Re: BBC Micro:bit computer now available to all for £13

#40

Post by gunmania0 »

technomancy wrote: post #39
gunmania0 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the fact it can't run micropython and BLE at the same time put BLE out of reach?

The point is you want to be able to program on the board rather than having it be useless without attaching it to a PC. For that you need both IO and an onboard compiler or interpreter. MicroPython is right out; it would almost fit Lua, but as it is it looks like your only option for independent development would be Forth.

You can flash it over Bluetooth?
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