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Moving Forward on Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#461

Post by vasilipupkin »

xienze wrote: post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

You just described the simple reason why BI fundamentally cannot work on a large scale. Since we will not be able to leave people on the side of the road if they spend their BI poorly, we will still have to have various programs to help them out. Hence, we might as well try to make those programs as efficient as possible if we are going to have them anyway and not worry about basic income.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#462

Post by bsbechtel »

One thing I didn't see mentioned in the post was an attempt to understand macro economic forces are affected by BI. I understand there are limitations to what can be studied in a controlled environment, and teasing out cause and effect of macro forces can be very, very difficult, but any sort of R&D done at a company normally focuses on reducing the largest risks first, to determine if the project should move forward. Looking at how individual well being and happiness are affected by a basic income seems like an (almost) no brainer as to what the outcome will be - generally positive for those individuals. Maybe this is something that is also being looked at by the team, and just didn't get mentioned in a brief blog post, but I would hope this research is at least thinking about how to address and manage these largest risks first, instead of the opposite.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#463

Post by eagsalazar2 »

xienze wrote: post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

I don't think you are doing this intentionally but your question is a bit of a straw man. I've never heard anyone flat out propose BI replace basic social services and safety nets. Those programs IMO would continue to exist and function but with a different set of external realities (since BI would change everything).

It is hard to imagine that welfare itself would continue as there would simply be no one who qualifies but possibly it would for extreme situations. If you assume universal, single payer, healthcare then you are talking about education programs, drug addiction, etc programs continuing to exist as they do now.

Anyway, what happens if you take your entire welfare check and blow it now? You turn to your family or you go on the streets. So not much would really change on that front and this isn't really relevant to BI or a flaw in it.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#464

Post by k2enemy »

tormeh wrote: post #428
k2enemy wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep seeing this repeated in discussions about BI, but I honestly have no idea how it would be possible. I get that everyone receives the same size check, no matter what their income, but who pays for the BI program? I assume it is funded through taxes and that people that earn more income will pay higher taxes. So once you take BI received - taxes paid , people that earn more outside income get less from the BI pr…

Umm... No, that's the situation where taxes create a disincentive to work. Try solving that without having taxes be a flat fee.

Fine, but if BI is not funded through taxes, then how is it funded?

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#465

Post by slantaclaus »

I hate to be the ostensible libertarian, but unless EVERYONE gets BI, the system will only perpetuate the poor staying poor just like so many other government programs that disincentive moving up in income due to the loss of benefits

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#467

Post by teekert »

xienze wrote: post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

I know someone who blows his "bijstand" (the lowest welfare level in the Netherlands, about 1000 euro but you will also receive subsidies for rent (up to 350 euro) and healthcare). I can tell you that you will become homeless and live in homeless shelters when your parents can't or will not take you in.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#468

Post by jacquesm »

It is one thing to create a dependency, it is quite another to terminate the relationship. I hope YC has a really good plan on how they will wind this down if they decide not to go through with it.

Chinese proverb: save a mans life and you are responsible for him. This might very well end up with some horrific withdrawal effects if and when the project is terminated.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#469

Post by robbiemitchell »

MichaelApproved wrote: post #446
robbiemitchell wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not enough discussion to this effect. When everyone has more money, the prices of everything will probably go up.

Isn't that similar to what's been happening with collage tuition? Government helps you pay tuition and gives you some breathing room, so the collages raise tuition higher until you're back at the limit you can possibly pay, taking away your breathing room again.

Yes, in part -- though I'd say the better analogy there is home mortgages; in both cases, easy access to low-cost loans leads to risky debt. (Plus, college tuitions have gone up in part because government subsidies have gone down and in part because they have allowed their costs to go up, not necessarily because they have simply jacked up the prices.)

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#470

Post by munificent »

xienze wrote: post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

I'm interested in basic income, though I don't know much about economics or politics.

I personally wouldn't expect basic income to replace all of those other systems. I don't like the quote here:

> We think everyone should have enough money to meet their basic needs

I think it should be just "Everyone should have their basic needs met". The money is a means to that end, but only a means, and not the best one for all needs. For example, I don't think people should have to use basic income for medical needs. Healthcare should just be provided.

That's good because our healthcare needs do not fit a nice flat monthly allotment. Most months, most people don't need to spend much on healthcare. Then there are some months where, holy shit, you need to spend tons. Some people have chronic illness and will over their lifetime spend way more money on healthcare. At the same time, most people don't have enough expertise to really shop around and choose how to best spend their healthcare dollar.

In contrast, I think basic income is a good fit for the needs where some personal discretion makes sense. That's probably housing, food, and personal essentials. I think of it as sort of like food stamps, except everyone gets them, even the wealthy, so hopefully they have less stigma. And you can use them to pay rent.

Even then, there needs to be safety nets below those. Some people—probably a small fraction—have either enough mental health problems, temporary misfortune, etc. where they may not reliably use their basic income to secure their needs. Those people certainly bear some responsibility for misallocating their basic income, but I don't believe the punishment for failing to do that should be a slow death by starvation or exposure. I certainly don't think the children of those people should be punished in that way.

I don't look at basic income as "more efficient welfare", though it may have some positive effects there. I care more that it creates a more efficient society by giving people more security and freedom. If you aren't living paycheck to paycheck, you can try to find a better place to live, or find a job that's better suited to your skills. If you aren't terrified of ending up on the streets, you have a little more brainpower to devote to learning and improving.

No one is their best self when they are barely scraping by. I think something like basic income can help us all make the most of our potential. It's not a panacea, but I think it can help.

It may also be the case that with basic income that more people have the time to volunteer and provide some of the welfare and social services the government currently funds. That may not pan out at all, but it's a nice idea and a possible emergent property.

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