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Moving Forward on Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#341
post #234
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of people who do work but still can't cover their basic needs reliably (minimum wage isn't nearly enough in big cities but cities still need the jobs that pay minimum wage) and then people who can't work (infirmity or lack of skills). Why should money just accumulate at the top where it's marginal utility is vastly smaller than if it were in the hands of the bottom portion of our population? Finally…

Of course there will always be people who cannot work. But the point is, BI is a basic income for anyone. No strings attached, Here's OPM, even for people who could make a living without BI. Strikes me as a waste of taxpayer's money?

Providing a wide ranging universal safety net seems like exactly the kind of thing that government is best suited for over any other institution. There's a lot of places it could wind up saving money over the current system anyways: practically no administration costs, lower health costs because people aren't forced to live in shitty places that make them sick because they're too poor to move somewhere else.

Even if it winds up costing more I don't classify giving everyone the freedom to live their life in a way of their choosing ultimately as a waste. Hell that's the basic utopian dream from Star Trek, Culture or a thousand other places, so much wealth that anyone can do anything with their lives and it's a rounding error. Are we there, no, but we have the surplus to take care of everyone's basic needs today.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#342
This is probably where my ignorance of socio-economics will shine, so please bear with me. In all the articles I've come across regarding universal basic income, I've never seen the idea of a flat tax rate mentioned (e.g. everybody, everything, 20%). It seems to me that it could work for the same reasons UBI is supposed to, i.e. reduce overheads among other things, while in this case also potentially reducing the risk for abuse and manipulation.

In my view, a universal flat tax rate would go hand-in-hand with a universal basic income. Since the essential aim of UBI is to ensure people can at least meet their basic needs to achieve a certain degree of freedom, it wouldn't seem too far-fetched to imagine meeting those needs at the societal level as well (which is already done to a large extent in a lot of countries anyway), i.e. free public healthcare, improved and completely free public education, even free electricity, water, internet and so on. The knock-on effect obviously being that the UBI wouldn't need to be as high should some or all of the basic needs be covered by default as public services.

Taking this a bit further, I'd like to see companies be incentivized to have their employees participate in Education in general. For instance, employees could spend 4 hours/week of their working time to go explain what they do to kids or run training sessions for adults trying to change career paths. The employer could be rewarded through some sort of tax break or something similar. Teachers would of course still exist, but the "burden" of Education would no longer be theirs only. I think this would have a number of benefitial effects:

- it would subsidize the cost of Education to some extent

- it would help level and adjust the job market more rapidly

- it would help participating employees have a better understanding of their own job

- it would expose people undergoing education to more professionals as opposed to almost only academics

But most of all, I believe it would make people realize that Education is everybody's responsibility and that it is a continuous and evolving process for people of any age or background.

There's obviously a lot more to be said about any of my points above, but I'd be interested to hear what people here think.

I understand that YCombinator would not have the ability to set tax rates and such, this is more of a thought exercise.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#343
post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

If you're having problems feeding yourself, I would like to see an opt-in program where you can receive food, in exchange for $X out of your BI. If you're having problems housing yourself, an opt-in program for housing in exchange for $Y out of your BI.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You completely side stepped the question. I find it absolutely amazing how naive BI supporters are. I grew up poor in a ghetto in New York. Studied, went to university, became an engineer and am no longer in that socioeconomic bracket. However it is very apparent that the people in my current bracket (the one's that support BI), have no idea about the issues of the poor. Poor people are mostly poor because of the dec…

> ... mental illness ... This is hardly a "decision somebody made".

It can be.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#345
post #94

BI is immoral: why should anyone who can work get money for doing nothing?

Lack of BI is immoral: why should anyone have to work harder than they need to?

Anyone is free to work as hard or as much as he or she wants - of course, this is not about the ill and the disabled - as long as she doesn't come to the tax payer for extra money.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#347
post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

>> But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all their money and now can't afford rent and/or food? What do we do today when someone with a job has a financial emergency or just flat-out blows all their money and now can't afford rent and/or food? You can't quit your job and instantly qualify for food stamps and you certainly can't instantly qualify for subsidizing housing -- in a lot of places it takes a decade or more to get public housing or a voucher.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll find there are two voices for BI, the liberal and the liberatian. The liberal would prefer to keep universal healthcare and food programs and put cash on top, making the total distribution to the poor larger. The liberatian would prefer to simply move the complex paternalistic safety net into a simpler cash payment which doesn't disincentivize work while not increasing it's size. As an aside, if you pay attent…

The thing I'd like to see is government services that will optionally replace portions of your Basic Income. If you're having problems feeding yourself, I would like to see an opt-in program where you can receive food, in exchange for $X out of your BI. If you're having problems housing yourself, an opt-in program for housing in exchange for $Y out of your BI. The same options should be available for all the necessit…

The agencies required to maintain all these services will come at a cost though; and I bet that removes the "Well, we won't have to maintain thousands of agencies for giving these specific kinds of aid" argument in favor of BI.

That having been said, I personally like this idea a lot. Maybe the balance between the two can be adjusted by cutting out (the market rate + agency cost) out of your BI – i.e. If a month's cheap food is $200 at cost, if you participate in a food stamp program, it takes $250 out of your BI (since a bunch of people have to be employed to verify things about it).

That way, people will be more motivated to not use the government agencies since they get a better deal by just saving that amount out of their BI.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really isn't a good riddle. First, Unconditional Cash Transfers (UCT) work better than most people expect ( http://www.economist.com/news/international/21588385-giving-... ). As noted in the article, UCTs work surprisingly well in scenarios where lack of capital is the primary problem. A UBI (at least as usually is discussed in the US) is a de-scaling UCT. Second, most proponents of a UBI see it as more efficien…

You completely side stepped the question. I find it absolutely amazing how naive BI supporters are. I grew up poor in a ghetto in New York. Studied, went to university, became an engineer and am no longer in that socioeconomic bracket. However it is very apparent that the people in my current bracket (the one's that support BI), have no idea about the issues of the poor. Poor people are mostly poor because of the dec…

What about inverting the status quo and deducting UBI for each child you have (with a grandfather clause of course)? The problem would solve itself in a few generations. You've gotta work and plan if you want to have kids. If you want to party for your entire life, go ahead, but you don't get to leave kids behind for the rest of us to deal with.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#350
post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

It is not an either or.

First, we should provide BI in a half/half combination of monthly and daily deposits since money management is a skill that is often lacking in the people who need BI the most.

Secondly, the government should continue to provide what I would call "Critical Infrastructure" programs, such as funding public transit, the public roads, and public education, public EMS and Fire Response, and public libraries. (I personally think that public dental, vision and preventative care clinics should fall in this category.) What else qualifies as 'critical infrastructure' is something that can be determined by voters at the local, state and federal level.

The finally, we should continue to support the further safety nets that are provided by private charities. (Food kitchens, homeless shelters.

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