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Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

nytimes.com

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Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#91

Post by grahamburger »

vehementi wrote: post #30
newacct23 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are arguing about specifics that do not make any difference to the overall argument the author is trying to make. UBI for 244 million is still unfeasible. UBI is just a bad idea, jobs in themselves have nice externalities that UBI wont give. People that have jobs generally don't commit crimes. Also a UBI will disincentivize working jobs that are undesirable but are necessary for a functioning society.

Why do they not talk about the tax increase that pays for it? It's supposed to be closer to neutral. I.e. people making $100k get an extra $10k tax burden to cancel out the $10k they just got. Pretty important factor to include in the discussion, yeah?

Don't they actually get more like an extra 30-50k burden to cancel out the 10k they got and pay 10k to several other people?

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#92

Post by ChemicalWarfare »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #74
refurb wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or that we tax the rich too little The top 3% of income earners pay 51% of all income taxes.[1] You think that's too little? What should that number be? [1] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/13/high-income-...

Whatever percentage it needs to be ratcheted up to in order to ensure that everyone is fed and has shelter. Seems like we can work backwards to determine that?

what if it's more than 100% of their income :)

are YOU prepared to pay let's say an 80% income tax and a 25% sales tax for example ?

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#93

Post by newacct23 »

mempko wrote: post #86
newacct23 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are arguing about specifics that do not make any difference to the overall argument the author is trying to make. UBI for 244 million is still unfeasible. UBI is just a bad idea, jobs in themselves have nice externalities that UBI wont give. People that have jobs generally don't commit crimes. Also a UBI will disincentivize working jobs that are undesirable but are necessary for a functioning society.

Notice that people do undesirable jobs because they probably don't have many other options. UBI gives them another option. This would either make pay for undesirable jobs increase, OR people would be forced to automate them. Seems like a win win.

>OR people would be forced to automate them

as if it were that easy. Why don't we worry about UBI once we actually reach the post scarcity economy?

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#94

Post by drewrv »

refurb wrote: post #59
RamshackleJ wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, and it doesn't even bother talking about the $21–32tn of untaxed assets( http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/upload/pdf/Price_of_Offshore_R... ). Or that we tax the rich too little while we tax everyone else too much to keep public perception focused on taxes being too high( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Historical_Marginal_... ).

Or that we tax the rich too little The top 3% of income earners pay 51% of all income taxes.[1] You think that's too little? What should that number be? [1] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/13/high-income-...

I think Buffet should pay a higher tax rate than his secretary. http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/04/news/economy/buffett-secreta...

And I think Mitt Romney should pay a higher rate than me. http://money.cnn.com/2012/09/21/pf/taxes/romney-tax-return/

The problem is that we treat capital gains differently than we treat income. Most of the top 3% work and pay income taxes, but the top .1% don't really pay income tax.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#95

Post by newacct23 »

funkysquid wrote: post #35
newacct23 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are arguing about specifics that do not make any difference to the overall argument the author is trying to make. UBI for 244 million is still unfeasible. UBI is just a bad idea, jobs in themselves have nice externalities that UBI wont give. People that have jobs generally don't commit crimes. Also a UBI will disincentivize working jobs that are undesirable but are necessary for a functioning society.

Are you saying that people commit crimes because they have too much time on their hands?

>Are you saying that people commit crimes because they have too much time on their hands?

Partially, yes. Why do you think after school programs are so good at keeping kids out of crime?

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#96

Post by cmurf »

jbob2000 wrote: post #28

Something that is missing from the basic income/poverty debate is the notion of "learned helplessness"; after a long time in poverty, people get used to the lifestyle and have difficulty adjusting to "regular" life. For example, if you've been homeless your entire life, you've never had to lock your apartment door or carry a key around. My partner (a social worker) had a client who's apartment was always getting robb…

Does basic income claim to solve this problem for people already in poverty? Or does it claim to prevent future generations from ever being in poverty?

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#97

Post by [deleted] »

refurb wrote: post #59
RamshackleJ wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, and it doesn't even bother talking about the $21–32tn of untaxed assets( http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/upload/pdf/Price_of_Offshore_R... ). Or that we tax the rich too little while we tax everyone else too much to keep public perception focused on taxes being too high( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Historical_Marginal_... ).

Or that we tax the rich too little The top 3% of income earners pay 51% of all income taxes.[1] You think that's too little? What should that number be? [1] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/13/high-income-...

[deleted]

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#98

Post by BookmarkSaver »

refurb wrote: post #59
RamshackleJ wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, and it doesn't even bother talking about the $21–32tn of untaxed assets( http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/upload/pdf/Price_of_Offshore_R... ). Or that we tax the rich too little while we tax everyone else too much to keep public perception focused on taxes being too high( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Historical_Marginal_... ).

Or that we tax the rich too little The top 3% of income earners pay 51% of all income taxes.[1] You think that's too little? What should that number be? [1] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/13/high-income-...

That is one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that taxes on the richest brackets are at their lowest point in like 50 years, while simultaneously those people have accumulated an even higher portion of the total wealth/income in the economy. Taken out of context, what you are saying seems significant. Looking at it historically, the rich haven't really had it better regarding taxes and their share of the country's wealth in the last century. Put this way, raising taxes or adding new higher tax brackets seems pretty reasonable.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#99

Post by drabiega »

witty_username wrote: post #50
lossolo wrote: post #25

Problem is with capitalism and it's founders that told us all that you can't live without work. In next decades we will need to change the system diametrical because robots will take all not creative jobs out there. If we want basic pay we will need to tax corporations that use robots at around 70-90%, money from tax will go for basic pay, money from people that receive basic pay will go to corporations etc. Thing th…

If robots take all the jobs, then nobody has to work anymore and everything will be very cheap. Think robot maids, drivers, and robot-cooked meals. People are so used to today's world of not-so-many-robots that people think not having a job is bad.

Cheap is relative to what you have. If you have no money, no one is going to build the robot that will make things for you. When automation increases without basic income, the share of resources going to those who are automated away gets squeezed, not increased.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#100

Post by cmurf »

maxxxxx wrote: post #52
jbob2000 wrote: post #28

Something that is missing from the basic income/poverty debate is the notion of "learned helplessness"; after a long time in poverty, people get used to the lifestyle and have difficulty adjusting to "regular" life. For example, if you've been homeless your entire life, you've never had to lock your apartment door or carry a key around. My partner (a social worker) had a client who's apartment was always getting robb…

When I was in my teens I worked summer jobs in a German social welfare agency (Sozialamt). There were many families that had been on welfare for generations and it was noticeable that their kids had no idea how to make progress in school or how to hold a job. They simply didn't know and had nobody who could tell them. They also had no role models. I think with basic income there is a risk that a lot of people will fo…

Right. The income value I keep seeing floated is in the realm of US$8000 per year. This is not basic income, it's basically a large tax credit. I don't know why it's called basic income, there's nothing really basic about it when it can't completely pay for one basic thing like say rent or mortgage.
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