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The Untold Story Behind Saudi Arabia’s U.S. Treasury Holdings

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Re: The Untold Story Behind Saudi Arabia’s U.S. Treasury Holdings

#91

There's a book called confessions of an economic hit man - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit... Essentially U.S. helps impoverished nations with infrastructure and other aid, but saddles them with debt in order to control them politically or otherwise. The interesting part was when it came to Saudi Arabia, which had so much money it didn't need to take on debt to develop their infrastructur…

The funny thing about debt is that it's looked at as a fundamental force of nature and not from a political economic relationship. The debt is owed to someone. Someone, somewhere is getting the interest payments. The duty of a debtor to pay the lender is enforced politically. The creation of fiat currency is controlled by the central bank, etc.

The Chinese realize this. On a political basis, they regularly buy up and write down bad loans with money the government electronically prints itself. This wouldn't work in our democratic system because politicized debt forgiveness is too obvious of a way to buy votes. Instead we have the fed buy bad debts from the banks in a form of politicized bad investment forgiveness, but the debts never go away and the taxpayer is partially stuck with the bill and hence austerity in the form of government bailouts.

Re: The Untold Story Behind Saudi Arabia’s U.S. Treasury Holdings

#92
post #9

You can see from their reported figures that their U.S. treasury holdings are far too low for a sensible national portfolio. It's a pretty glaring hole, and you know that the money is going somewhere off the balance sheets. The question has always been how much U.S. debt exactly the Saudi's hold. This is an interesting historical anecdote, but it doesn't provide any information about the size of the debt, other than…

A few years ago I read a good book on the collapse of the USSR (can't remember the title, too lazy to go back and find it right now). One of the major factors that the author identified was glasnost ("transparency"), which I'm old enough to remember being talked about on the news at the time. Basically, his thesis was that it was the transparency, after a generation of buildup of really nasty official secrets, that u…

There is a theory that Perestroika and Glasnost were responsible for the collapse of the Soviet Union, but to me that seems unlikely. The Soviet Union was bound to collapse, because it's mandate, by definition, was limitless expansion of communism.

When the government could no longer coordinate production, Perestroika and Glasnost were last-ditch efforts to bring the Soviet Union more in line with Western norms. Unfortunately, since their empire was built on force, the loosening of the reigns only encouraged irredentist movements, until one by one the Soviet republics fell like dominos.

Don't get me wrong. It is a major mainstream theory that the liberalizing reforms unleashed too much information on the Soviet public all at once, causing a massive reaction.

I do believe Glasnost and Perestroika were the cause of the collapse, but it wasn't was because of the volume of information released. Rather, it was the increased freedoms to organize and communicate outside the strictures of the state. Free speech and freedom of assembly are anathema to dictatorship. Once that occurred, it was only a matter of time before their vassal states rose up.

The United States isn't quite as vulnerable to that type of collapse. You have to remember the Soviet style of occupation was absolutely brutal. The murder of anyone considered to be part of the elite class, including everyone from factory owners to the university professors, constant surveillance, and indiscriminate use of force were the first steps upon the Soviets gaining control of a country. The result was subjugated nations and people, not new provinces and citizens.

The United States doesn't have that style of federation. Its provinces are held together by a common national identity in voluntary assembly, not a single nation presiding over others by raw force.

I do also believe that if the United States' TS archives were ever opened, many things suspected by conspiracy theorists would be proved correct, even more would be proven false, and there would be countless other plots no one even suspected.

Re: The Untold Story Behind Saudi Arabia’s U.S. Treasury Holdings

#93
post #46
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the United States and Great Britain have similar, but not identical interests in the Middle East. Their intelligence operatives are almost preternaturally good (or at least seem that way due to their extremely precise knowledge of the Middle East.) And unlike American intelligence officers, they have a much smaller risk of "going native." American officers are rotated every few years to prevent this effect, whil…

Of course the US and UK have different interests. The UK has as a very high priority abstract objective the question of "how can we exist as something other than a US client state?" Given the other priority of "how can we avoid getting on the wrong side of the US as at Suez?" this often produces incoherent policy: the ""independent"" nuclear deterrent that may not be, the aircraft carrier with no aircraft. Al-Yamamah…

It's what I was taught in an intelligence course.

Re: The Untold Story Behind Saudi Arabia’s U.S. Treasury Holdings

#94
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swinging the election toward a hawkish demagogue with no knowledge of foreign policy does not seem like a desirable outcome for the United States either. It's worth noting that for now the Saudis still retain a bit of leverage. They could potentially start a kamikaze run on the dollar. They are our largest regional ally, and in very close proximity to Israel. We have very little knowledge of their nuclear program. Fi…

>hey could potentially start a kamikaze run on the dollar. I'm not so sure. Assuming they had several hundred billion dollars worth of Treasuries, and further assuming that they dumped them all on the market, the demand for USG debt is sufficiently large that I suspect it would be purchased in an orderly fashion without even causing much uptick in interest rates.

Assuming a rational market, sure. But market panics aren't governed by the normal rules of supply and demand. They're a behavioral phenomenon caused by the non-rational human agents in the system panicking.

Re: The Untold Story Behind Saudi Arabia’s U.S. Treasury Holdings

#95
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swinging the election toward a hawkish demagogue with no knowledge of foreign policy does not seem like a desirable outcome for the United States either. It's worth noting that for now the Saudis still retain a bit of leverage. They could potentially start a kamikaze run on the dollar. They are our largest regional ally, and in very close proximity to Israel. We have very little knowledge of their nuclear program. Fi…

"It's worth noting that for now the Saudis still retain a bit of leverage. They could potentially start a kamikaze run on the dollar. " Do you have an idea of whether their increased production has affected the fracking production in the US? Would they, in the long-term, have success in making the US more dependent again? "They are our largest regional ally, and in very close proximity to Israel... Finally, they're a…

1. Do you have an idea of whether their increased production has affected the fracking production in the US? Would they, in the long-term, have success in making the US more dependent again?

The theory that a lot of people had was that the Saudis are attempting to push down oil prices. My family owns some property on which they're conducting hydraulic fracturing (not my call, I campaigned to have the practice banned in the state.)

There's still faith that oil prices will rise again, and investment, while reduced, is continuing. To the extend that the Saudis lower production, US facilities are already built now, and most of the mothballed facilities can come back online in a year or so.

2. As I understand it, the Saudi Royal family derives part of its legitimacy through the backing of the religious leaders of their country, and the Sunni world at large - but many of the Saudi family itself are actually more progressive than the conservative country. Is there any chance that they want to or could push back against the Wahhabist ideology that seems to spout from the gulf peninsula?

In brief, yes, and the liberalizing push from the royal family is growing stronger with time. Saudi Arabia has gone through great pains to construct a world-class university. Built in an isolated area to avoid the interference with the religious police, KAUST has an endowment of ~$20 Billion, which puts it monetarily on par with each of H/Y/P and is twice the combined endowment of Oxford and Cambridge.

KAUST has partnerships with prominent United States universities, including several in the Ivy League, and is headed by the former University President of Caltech. Most instruction is in English, men and women study side-by-side, and freedom of discussion is encouraged. There are also plans to construct a series of model cities along the coastline, following much a similar model.

Most recently, Saudi Arabia underwent a fairly silent transition of power to Prince Salman. Prince Salman is a modernizer, who very much understands that Saudi Arabia needs to invest its oil revenues into creating an economy that is not dependent on oil exports. He has the blessing of the King and the Allegiance Council, has consolidated power through as the official head of the defense, economic, and oil ministries.

A few months ago, King Salman issued a series of liberalizing decrees widely seen to be the result of Prince Salman's influence. [0] So there is hope for the Kingdom yet.

3. " We have very little knowledge of their nuclear program" How is that possible? It'd seem as though their supplies of nuclear weapons are precisely the types that we want to be aware of at all times?

We know they have a nascent capability being developed south of Riyyhad. The reason we have little insight is that American HUMINT in Saudi Arabia is woefully weak. We do not know whether they have already have a weapon, whether they've miniaturized it, or if they don't, what the breakout time for them to develop one is.

When the cube was seized in 1979 and the Muslim world thought the US was to blame, we got the glimpses of what reactions could be. We'd truly see the Middle East in flames.

Agreed, and unfortunately the only way to douse those flames would be a mobilization effort the Western world can scarcely afford.

[0] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/world/middleeast/saudi-ara...

Re: The Untold Story Behind Saudi Arabia’s U.S. Treasury Holdings

#96

There's a book called confessions of an economic hit man - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit... Essentially U.S. helps impoverished nations with infrastructure and other aid, but saddles them with debt in order to control them politically or otherwise. The interesting part was when it came to Saudi Arabia, which had so much money it didn't need to take on debt to develop their infrastructur…

The IMF primarily. Yes the US takes part in that, but the organization is the IMF. The IMF partially realizes their role in this, but its more of an outcome than a conspiracy. They've commented on that book in an interesting non-denial, basically saying that the GDP of the countries they've helped/subjected-in-a-giant-conspiracy is so low and such a small fraction of the IMF budget that it doesn't make sense that the…

> Yes the US takes part in that, but the organization is the IMF.

To be clear: The IMF and World Bank are primarily controlled by the Western powers. EDIT: And are seen as tools of Western power by many.

Re: The Untold Story Behind Saudi Arabia’s U.S. Treasury Holdings

#97
post #9

You can see from their reported figures that their U.S. treasury holdings are far too low for a sensible national portfolio. It's a pretty glaring hole, and you know that the money is going somewhere off the balance sheets. The question has always been how much U.S. debt exactly the Saudi's hold. This is an interesting historical anecdote, but it doesn't provide any information about the size of the debt, other than…

Perhaps we should be demanding heads on pikes. This has very real implications for Hillary Clinton's election chances as well. The Clintons have been supporters of the Saudis for some time now and have accepted Saudi government money through the Clinton Foundation. https://www.clintonfoundation.org/contributors?category=%241... http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/hillary-clinton-... There is no reason the U.S…

> There is no reason the U.S. should be allies with the House of Saud.

There is a very good reason:

1) The US needs a stable oil supply

2) The US needs global stability, for which the world needs a stable oil supply.

3) A stable oil supply requires a stable Persian Gulf region.

4) Leverage and influence with the most powerful nation in the Persian Gulf (with the possible exception of Iran, an enemy of the U.S.), is very valuable and perhaps necessary to stability in the Persian Gulf.

That arrangement worked for decades, and look what's happening now that it fell apart.

Recently things have changed a little: The US has become less dependent on Persian Gulf oil due to domestic supplies; there is/was a global glut of oil, making the world less dependent on the Gulf; US-Iran relations improved somewhat; and Saudi religious fundamentalism has gone from being their internal problem to a global problem.

Also, US policy changed: The US became a cause of instability in the Persian Gulf with the invasion of Iraq and the reckless disregard for the need to find a stable, political outcome for that country (no planning for occupation, etc.). Also, the Arab Spring created a dilemma: Support democracy or support short/medium-term stability? At times the US chose democracy, further undermining current stability (democracies would of course be more stable in the long run, but getting from here to there involves a period of instability).

Re: The Untold Story Behind Saudi Arabia’s U.S. Treasury Holdings

#98
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to hear more. Where you married? What was it like for you spouse? If not, what was the dating scene like in 82? Did you travel around any? What are the most interesting parts of the country? Did you ever make it to Mecca? How good are you at recognizing family names and power connections? Did that come with time? How did people in different parts of the country view each other? I just returned from a week in…

Think about that, the jihadists get the nice jail, because they are rehabilitatable This is infinitely more humane than the current US strategy of drone strikes, "kills terrorists" never mind the collateral damage and disruption it causes. Hell our DOC could learn a few things. Here, if you are ever once a criminal, you're a criminal for life.

I quite agree with you that the Saudis' approach here is much less horrible!

>Here, if you are ever once a criminal, you're a criminal for life

OTOH, recidivism for sorcery must be pretty low over in the Kingdom, since the punishment for this crime (?) is beheading (!).

Re: The Untold Story Behind Saudi Arabia’s U.S. Treasury Holdings

#99
post #42
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the United States and Great Britain have similar, but not identical interests in the Middle East. Their intelligence operatives are almost preternaturally good (or at least seem that way due to their extremely precise knowledge of the Middle East.) And unlike American intelligence officers, they have a much smaller risk of "going native." American officers are rotated every few years to prevent this effect, whil…

im not surprised. every (out of 10 or so) brit ive met overseas and had a good chat with out over the last 3 years of being an expat has been a neurotic and/or belligerent asshole whereas most of the americans (out of 20) were able to communicate and assimilate with the local culture. its become such a pattern that i wont even speak english to a person with a british accent anymore. quite a few of them are just looki…

My girlfriend runs a hostel and in my experience, the "Rule Britannia" types are a (vocal) minority. No country has a monopoly on jerks...

Re: The Untold Story Behind Saudi Arabia’s U.S. Treasury Holdings

#100
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps we should be demanding heads on pikes. This has very real implications for Hillary Clinton's election chances as well. The Clintons have been supporters of the Saudis for some time now and have accepted Saudi government money through the Clinton Foundation. https://www.clintonfoundation.org/contributors?category=%241... http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/hillary-clinton-... There is no reason the U.S…

Swinging the election toward a hawkish demagogue with no knowledge of foreign policy does not seem like a desirable outcome for the United States either. It's worth noting that for now the Saudis still retain a bit of leverage. They could potentially start a kamikaze run on the dollar. They are our largest regional ally, and in very close proximity to Israel. We have very little knowledge of their nuclear program. Fi…

> Swinging the election toward a hawkish demagogue with no knowledge of foreign policy

At this point that sounds like either of them.

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