Something that is missing from the basic income/poverty debate is the notion of "learned helplessness"; after a long time in poverty, people get used to the lifestyle and have difficulty adjusting to "regular" life. For example, if you've been homeless your entire life, you've never had to lock your apartment door or carry a key around. My partner (a social worker) had a client who's apartment was always getting robb…
Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty
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Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty
#62At a minimum, we need free universal healthcare that shouldn't be replaced with basic income, because poor sick people often need more expensive healthcare than a reasonable basic income can pay for. Similar for education, the current system of loans just sucks compared to universal free education which was achieved by the frigging USSR. Also it seems pointless to give basic income to well-off people. On top of free…
Otherwise taking the basic income might be seen as a symbol of being poor. Also, well-off people might be envious of people receiving basic income.
(tl;dr people aren't perfectly rational)
Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty
#63Something that is missing from the basic income/poverty debate is the notion of "learned helplessness"; after a long time in poverty, people get used to the lifestyle and have difficulty adjusting to "regular" life. For example, if you've been homeless your entire life, you've never had to lock your apartment door or carry a key around. My partner (a social worker) had a client who's apartment was always getting robb…
I took 10 months off where I lived with just two backpacks. I wasn't homeless by any means, I had my savings I was living off of (technically homeless I guess, but not in the cultural sense).
Even though I had a lot of expensive electronics, I didn't buy a lock until about 7 months in. Even then, a lot of hostels didn't have large enough lockers for my small back which contained my laptop, camera, etc.
There is a sorta social contract with backpackers I can't really explain. I still kept my stuff hidden, but I never had any real fear of people stealing my stuff.
Those 10 months were the best I've felt in a while. I was away from the cube. I was working on my own research (I wrote a lab manual for a friend's class based on some papers we wrote). I worked late into the night and walked around new cities every day. I was never tired, exhausted or irritable. I dreams of getting back into school and working on my PhD, but I'm still working on fellowship applications and I ran out of money .. so back to full-time IT work I went.
That "regular" life you talk about -- getting up early and working the 8-5 grind to get a paycheck just to keep on doing the same fucking thing day in and day out. That's bullshit. And that's coming from a software engineer who gets paid a lot and I have a lot of freedom in my work.
For those working low income jobs where they barely have enough and have to scrap and save every paycheck, that's super bullshit.
> For example, if you've been homeless your entire life, you've never had to lock your apartment door or carry a key around.
I live in a place with a massive homeless population and tent cities. People have their stuff spread out with them, but they have no fear of anyone taking it. Part of it is the poor looking after each other, part of it is if stuff is stolen, it's not like they have much to begin with. Suddenly you're housed and now you have something worth breaking into.
I'm getting a bit ranty at this point, and I'm not entirely sure what my TL;DR is. I realize being poor and homeless can suck terribly. But the things you mention...those aren't the bad things. Those are amazing ways to look at the world that are taken away when you try to bring civilization to the savages.
Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why do they not talk about the tax increase that pays for it? It's supposed to be closer to neutral. I.e. people making $100k get an extra $10k tax burden to cancel out the $10k they just got. Pretty important factor to include in the discussion, yeah?
obviously someone else is going to have to pay for people making under 10k.
Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty
#65Relative poverty is insoluble without totalitarian levels of redistribution to a very low common denominator, and that is unlikely to include the inevitable oligarchs. Absolute poverty is rapidly being solved ( https://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_... ) by markets and globalization, and radical redistribution such as a basic income tends to interfere with that.
The fact that you even think "totalitarian levels of redistribution" is a cogent concept is a strong indicator that your opinion on this topic isn't worth much.
"Your opinion is worthless" isn't a useful debating tactic when you're talking to people with as much political power as you yourself have.
Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty
#66Something that is missing from the basic income/poverty debate is the notion of "learned helplessness"; after a long time in poverty, people get used to the lifestyle and have difficulty adjusting to "regular" life. For example, if you've been homeless your entire life, you've never had to lock your apartment door or carry a key around. My partner (a social worker) had a client who's apartment was always getting robb…
"He couldn't hold down a job and regularly missed appointments." I think this is part of the problem - right now in society, if you can't be on time and hold down a job, you'll go hungry and have no place to live. Basic income removes that harsh penalty, and lets people live regardless of whether they can make an appointment.
The real challenge of a basic income isn't how to pay for it; it's how to convince regular people who get up every day and go work at jobs a lot shittier than most of us here have that that's a harsh penalty.
There is enormous social momentum behind the idea that you should work if you can.
Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty
#67The very first argument in the article is flawed which leads me to wonder how much of it is or isn't flawed. It talks about a Universal Basic Income for everyone over 21.. then it complains that would cost 3 trillion dollars for all of the 300 million Americans. According to the Census Bureau as of 2015 there were 321 million Americans and 24% were under 18. No clue how many were under 21. But that still takes it dow…
If we start excluding groups, can we stop calling it a " Universal Basic Income" and admit that it will be yet another political weapon to wield?
Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fact that you even think "totalitarian levels of redistribution" is a cogent concept is a strong indicator that your opinion on this topic isn't worth much.
... unless, of course, that individual votes. "Your opinion is worthless" isn't a useful debating tactic when you're talking to people with as much political power as you yourself have.
Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty
#69Something that is missing from the basic income/poverty debate is the notion of "learned helplessness"; after a long time in poverty, people get used to the lifestyle and have difficulty adjusting to "regular" life. For example, if you've been homeless your entire life, you've never had to lock your apartment door or carry a key around. My partner (a social worker) had a client who's apartment was always getting robb…
However, that's just not a reasonable argument against UBI.
Consider: Having too much money is never a problem. Quoth the sage, "If it is money, it is good.", also "Too much is always better than not enough."
Misspending that money is the problem. But if everyone around you has UBI too, their ability to spare time and effort to care for you and help you learn to cope with life is fantastically increased.
Helping others is hugely rewarding, fulfilling even, but most people are limited either by their real or perceived lack of funds, or by minor personal problems. With UBI the bottom Nth of people's BS is handled, freeing them up to help others whose BS is a little too formidable for them to cope with on their own.
If you take a step back and look at the larger picture, and take into account the synergy that will be unleashed by UBI, I think you'll reconsider. :-)
Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty
#70- Simplification of the welfare system, you get money automatically, no need to ask.
- In the current system, if you get employed, you lose benefits, so the jump in your income is small, a disincentive to work. In the BI proposals, income vs income-plus-welfare curve is smooth. That's the main improvement I think.
- More money gets redistributed from the wealthy to the poor. Personally I think the current level of redistribution is fine.