Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty • Hacker News Board

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#51

Post by cat_plus_plus » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:03 PM UTC

This is nuts. Basic income is not to provide extra spending money for 100% of americans. It's help 10% of the most poor while everyone else ends up paying back the money in taxes. So we are talking about 300 billion. This is half of US military budget and will be instead of, instead of in addition to, current aid programs.

It is true that basic income will not directly improve lifestyle of the middle class. It can well result in indirect improvement by poor becoming more productive and government bureaucrats currently running the program getting more useful jobs. But we probably need to other things as well to improve lifestyle for the other 90% of the population.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#52

Post by maxxxxx » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

jbob2000 wrote: post #28

Something that is missing from the basic income/poverty debate is the notion of "learned helplessness"; after a long time in poverty, people get used to the lifestyle and have difficulty adjusting to "regular" life. For example, if you've been homeless your entire life, you've never had to lock your apartment door or carry a key around. My partner (a social worker) had a client who's apartment was always getting robb…

When I was in my teens I worked summer jobs in a German social welfare agency (Sozialamt). There were many families that had been on welfare for generations and it was noticeable that their kids had no idea how to make progress in school or how to hold a job. They simply didn't know and had nobody who could tell them. They also had no role models.

I think with basic income there is a risk that a lot of people will forever be lost for the working world. Especially if the basic income is so low that you can barely survive.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#53

Post by witty_username » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

1123581321 wrote: post #46

skybrian wrote: post #21

This article is yet another example of binary thinking. Basic income could be started at any amount. It won't pay the rent, but an extra $100 a month makes a difference for people living on the edge. The first $100/month will make a bigger difference than anything added on top of that.

The problem is that a very small number of people are on that $100/month edge, a percentage of them will increase their expenses until they are as desperate as they used to be, and the increased taxes to pay this money will put others on the edge. When considering BI, or any large money transfer program, you must consider the entire system, not just the beneficial effects on a small number of people for the first few…

Money is correlated with happiness. Sure, people will still yearn for more money, but with the more expenses people will be more happy.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#54

Post by [deleted] » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

carapace wrote: post #44

toomuchtodo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also a UBI will disincentivize working jobs that are undesirable but are necessary for a functioning society. That's kinda the point. You drive up the cost of undesirable jobs until you find someone who'll work it. If no one wants to work it, you'll need to automate it or do without.

Yes, this! I hate the "But who will pick up the garbage?" argument so much, the lazy thinker who says this is implying that our society only functions if there's an explicit hell waiting for those who fail it. And that's kinda fucked up, eh? If UBI fixed just that it would be worth it, IMHO. Also, have you ever talked to the people who pick up your garbage?

[deleted]

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#55

Post by alexchantavy » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

UBI would also provide entrepreneurs and small business owners with a safety net so they'd be able to take risks they wouldn't be able to before.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#56

Post by zcmncbv » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

jbob2000 wrote: post #28

Something that is missing from the basic income/poverty debate is the notion of "learned helplessness"; after a long time in poverty, people get used to the lifestyle and have difficulty adjusting to "regular" life. For example, if you've been homeless your entire life, you've never had to lock your apartment door or carry a key around. My partner (a social worker) had a client who's apartment was always getting robb…

It's true. In addition to basic income, many people need support to get out of their (inherited) impoverished habits. Many people come from dreadful backgrounds and so have no idea how to look after themselves and are surrounded by bad influences.

I often think that all some people need is to be extracted from their environment and transplanted into a new one somewhere else in the world with new friends and a different job. Cut-off from their unhealthy social network they would rebuild themselves and thrive.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#57

Post by jbob2000 » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

Smudge wrote: post #33

jbob2000 wrote: post #28

Something that is missing from the basic income/poverty debate is the notion of "learned helplessness"; after a long time in poverty, people get used to the lifestyle and have difficulty adjusting to "regular" life. For example, if you've been homeless your entire life, you've never had to lock your apartment door or carry a key around. My partner (a social worker) had a client who's apartment was always getting robb…

Basic income doesn't always solve this for someone who is already homeless, but it might still act as a preventative measure, giving someone enough of a financial buffer to avoid homelessness entirely.

If you heard some of these stories, you would find that it's not just a lack of money that causes homelessness. To be brutally honest, it's a mixture of stupidity and often, an addiction. These people need other people actively intervening in their lives to keep them on track. The preventative measure should be the social worker, not the pay cheque.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#58

Post by dionidium » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:06 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #37

tn13 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poverty is an issue long solved in USA. We are talking about relative poverty and governments are trying to push totalitarian redistribution schemes everywhere.

You are grossly misinformed: https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/about/overview/

I think you both know that you're talking past one another, seemingly intentionally. It's absolutely true that, given even a minimal family/friend support structure, people to the very left of the earnings curve have a decent standard of living in the U.S. today. If you have an able body, it's pretty hard to starve (or even go without cable TV). I think you both know that.

On the other hand, some people obviously don't have able bodies or any support network to speak of. I think you both know that, too.

So, why he disconnect?

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#59

Post by refurb » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:06 PM UTC

RamshackleJ wrote: post #22

nullsmack wrote: post #6

The very first argument in the article is flawed which leads me to wonder how much of it is or isn't flawed. It talks about a Universal Basic Income for everyone over 21.. then it complains that would cost 3 trillion dollars for all of the 300 million Americans. According to the Census Bureau as of 2015 there were 321 million Americans and 24% were under 18. No clue how many were under 21. But that still takes it dow…

Yep, and it doesn't even bother talking about the $21–32tn of untaxed assets( http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/upload/pdf/Price_of_Offshore_R... ). Or that we tax the rich too little while we tax everyone else too much to keep public perception focused on taxes being too high( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Historical_Marginal_... ).

Or that we tax the rich too little

The top 3% of income earners pay 51% of all income taxes.[1] You think that's too little? What should that number be?

[1]http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/13/high-income-...

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#60

Post by swalsh » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:08 PM UTC

funkysquid wrote: post #35

newacct23 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are arguing about specifics that do not make any difference to the overall argument the author is trying to make. UBI for 244 million is still unfeasible. UBI is just a bad idea, jobs in themselves have nice externalities that UBI wont give. People that have jobs generally don't commit crimes. Also a UBI will disincentivize working jobs that are undesirable but are necessary for a functioning society.

Are you saying that people commit crimes because they have too much time on their hands?

It's an unfounded assumption, the reality is (and you can prove this with data) most people committing crimes today do it as an act of desperation. Professional criminals are definitely a real thing, but they'll exist with or without a basic income. However, if a basic income eliminates poverty, it may have a real impact on crime.