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Ask HN: What do you think about the current education system?

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Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the current education system?

#21

Post by oxplot »

I think the current education system is inefficient at best. It also fails to expose kids to variety of skills/professions out there enough, so they can get a taste of what it's like to be this or that. Most kids don't know what they want to do even after starting college because all they've dealt with has been subjects that taught them the tools (e.g. mathematics, language) without giving them context.

Further to that, instead of focusing on minimalism and utility, each subjects goes to depths far beyond of what most kids need to know to make use of. Lo and behold, they're going to forget majority of it in a month. And some subjects have gone completely off the rails, like English, with the main focus on past literature. That's not what natural languages are most used for. Arguments, public speaking, legal, journalism, marketing. These matter day in day out, not what Shakespeare spewed while he was high on an Autumn afternoon. That's fine too but let the kids do it on their own time and focus the efforts in equipping them with critical thinking, etc for when they enter the wild!

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the current education system?

#22

Post by existencebox »

V-2 wrote: post #18
andrei_says_ wrote: post #14

Trying to make kids memorize a bunch of stuff that's unimportant to them is incredibly inefficient and the information fades fast. Having them do this at the expense of play (accelerated self-guided learning through social simulation, art and sports), at the expense of physical activity and in an insanely toxic social environment, is plain crazy. Apprenticeship, where one learns what they need to learn when they need…

"Trying to make kids memorize a bunch of stuff that's unimportant to them is incredibly inefficient and the information fades fast." I've come to the conclusion that it's not about this information itself. It's more about learning how to learn . This is the skill that the education system helped me develop, and which is useful for me long after the "training data sets" the school used have fallen into complete oblivi…

The problem with that, however, is that how I learned to learn in school was entirely ineffective for me. I struggled for YEARS, barely passing math courses, needing special tutoring, HATING history, because it was all presented as some sort of "GET THIS IN YOUR HEAD" problem. There was another HN discussion slightly digging at public schools, let me make clear this was across both private and public schools, the public in fact being _far better_ at treating students like individuals for the most part.

It took me the better part of college to re-teach myself how to think, I largely attribute it to learning how to be a good CSer on my own effort. (To be clear, not that my effort was anything special, but it let me for once see how I wanted to approach the work, rather than a parent or teacher pressing their structure on it)

I'm not sure what my full takeaway from this is, I certainly expect my anecdote not to hold true universally, I think I mostly intend to warn against an inflexible framework for "teaching learning" (as schools so often tend to be, through natural if unmalicious incentives), lest the process become nothing more than an indoctrination into the life lesson of "you will sit here, do this terribly boring and unproductive thing, and have no say in the matter, and will likely be punished regardless".

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the current education system?

#24

Post by alejandrohacks »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #14

Trying to make kids memorize a bunch of stuff that's unimportant to them is incredibly inefficient and the information fades fast. Having them do this at the expense of play (accelerated self-guided learning through social simulation, art and sports), at the expense of physical activity and in an insanely toxic social environment, is plain crazy. Apprenticeship, where one learns what they need to learn when they need…

I see the value of apprenticeship, learning skills on demand. However, I don't think everything should necessary be learned only on the base of apprenticeship. Correct me if I am wrong but I am guessing you probably did not imply this. Lessons that shape your worldview, those that shape you as a person, are extremely valuable and should always be taught. Also learning things out of curiosity and not necessarily on demand is also extremely valuable. Sometimes you can only connect the dots looking backwards.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the current education system?

#25

Post by andrei_says_ »

alejandrohacks wrote: post #24
andrei_says_ wrote: post #14

Trying to make kids memorize a bunch of stuff that's unimportant to them is incredibly inefficient and the information fades fast. Having them do this at the expense of play (accelerated self-guided learning through social simulation, art and sports), at the expense of physical activity and in an insanely toxic social environment, is plain crazy. Apprenticeship, where one learns what they need to learn when they need…

I see the value of apprenticeship, learning skills on demand. However, I don't think everything should necessary be learned only on the base of apprenticeship. Correct me if I am wrong but I am guessing you probably did not imply this. Lessons that shape your worldview, those that shape you as a person, are extremely valuable and should always be taught. Also learning things out of curiosity and not necessarily on de…

You are correct, I did not propose apprenticeship as a methodology for learning everything.

I however think that treating the human mind as a bucket which can be filled with knowledge at a specific speed following a plan, is disastrous.

Children at young ages have dramatically different levels of development, interests, subject specific curiosities even at the same age. Treating them as if they are all the ideal child, ready to learn what the plan says they should, is ignorant at best.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the current education system?

#26

Post by CuriouslyC »

V-2 wrote: post #18
andrei_says_ wrote: post #14

Trying to make kids memorize a bunch of stuff that's unimportant to them is incredibly inefficient and the information fades fast. Having them do this at the expense of play (accelerated self-guided learning through social simulation, art and sports), at the expense of physical activity and in an insanely toxic social environment, is plain crazy. Apprenticeship, where one learns what they need to learn when they need…

"Trying to make kids memorize a bunch of stuff that's unimportant to them is incredibly inefficient and the information fades fast." I've come to the conclusion that it's not about this information itself. It's more about learning how to learn . This is the skill that the education system helped me develop, and which is useful for me long after the "training data sets" the school used have fallen into complete oblivi…

The problem is almost all schools fail miserably at teaching people to learn.

First off, we learn best when our learning is motivated by something more concrete than "good grades". As an example, I had a hard time with advanced math in school. When I went on to build engineering projects that required advanced math, the same concepts that mostly eluded me previously became fairly straightforward.

Secondly, learning happens best when the material presented is varied, and revisited many times over a long period of time. Schools tend to compress learning about a given subject into a limited time frame, then only revisit it in final exams.

Third, learning occurs far better from trying to recall and apply information than from having it passively presented to you. Instead of having school be mostly lecture with a few exams, school should be mostly tests, with the teacher going back and clarifying only things that many students had trouble with.

In the end, school mostly teaches people to sit still and follow instructions.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the current education system?

#27

Post by _kyran »

jvvlimme wrote: post #12

There is very little good about the current education system: 1/ Dividing kids in age based groups is very poor. They only learn negative behaviour from each other. Skill based would be more interesting as the younger kids would learn from the older students and the older ones learn some responsibility towards the older students 2/ Scientific research has proven teacher based education to be sub-optimal. You take awa…

My high school had a vertical curriculum. From the age of 12 to 18, every student got to select 7 different subjects (plus sport) each semester. Most students would accelerate a level in one subject they were proficient at, although due to the 'levels' of classes it would usually end up with each level being 95% a certain age.

There were exceptions, like one student (may have been a savant) finished his high school certificate in four subject areas 5 years early.

This curriculum had its weaknesses. I accelerated in Math at the age of 13 after starting high school. I was then in a class with no friends, and without much social interaction, I'd zone out and spend the lesson trawling the internet.

Since that class, I've struggled with maths ever since and ended up eventually returning down to a standard level for my final two years of high school.

Happy to answer any other questions about having a vertical curriculum for those that are curious.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the current education system?

#28

Post by andrei_says_ »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #26
V-2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Trying to make kids memorize a bunch of stuff that's unimportant to them is incredibly inefficient and the information fades fast." I've come to the conclusion that it's not about this information itself. It's more about learning how to learn . This is the skill that the education system helped me develop, and which is useful for me long after the "training data sets" the school used have fallen into complete oblivi…

The problem is almost all schools fail miserably at teaching people to learn. First off, we learn best when our learning is motivated by something more concrete than "good grades". As an example, I had a hard time with advanced math in school. When I went on to build engineering projects that required advanced math, the same concepts that mostly eluded me previously became fairly straightforward. Secondly, learning h…

> In the end, school mostly teaches people to sit still and follow instructions.

And we all know that following instructions does not lead to fulfilling lives, and that sitting still for long periods of time is a sure predictor for a shorter lifespan.

Schools were institutionalized and were good for preparing cheap factory labor.

Our society no longer needs this.

So schools fail the economy and the kids. Preparing today's children for yesterday.

The very institutions that proclaim themselves as the beacon of knowledge and enlightenment act as the opposite.

Ironic.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the current education system?

#29

Post by kdamken »

Speaking in terms of the USA here.

Garbage. An almost complete waste of time and energy. For grades K-12 a lot of it is just babysitting, to give kids a place to be and keep them out of trouble while their parents are at work. I value my primary school education very little.

While I wouldn't go so far as to say that college is a scam, I would say it is often one of the poorest financial investments people make, and it's even worse because we trick naive 18 year olds into doing it. College is not for you to find yourself, and it's not for you to waste time pursuing a degree that can't help you support yourself and pay back the insane amount of debt you took on to go there.

The current generation of kids was told that you need to go to college or you'll be a failure in life. My dad constantly was saying that if we fucked up and didn't get into a good college we'd be "Making hoagies at Wawa". They say your major doesn't matter, it just matters that you have a degree - you can figure out the rest later.

It's a shame no one sits kids down and says - "Hey, you're about to take out one of the largest loans of your life, one that you'll have to pay many years, maybe even decades. Why are you doing that? What career do you want? Will this degree get you there? What can you expect to earn with this degree - can you pay down these loans with it? If your loans are X, you will be paying at least Y a month."

Most people I know did not get a talk like that from their parents, or high school teachers/guidance counselors. I wish they did.

Some things to improve the current system:

1. Not every kid needs to go to college. Are you bad at that book learning stuff? That's fine - push more kids into trade schools.

2. In the upper grades of primary school, focus on teaching kids the things that will actually matter and are useful. Financial things - how to do your taxes, how to use and maintain a budget, how to pay your bills on time. Life things - applying for jobs, finding an apartment, what careers pay best and how to get into them. Civil rights - how to protect yourself from the police. Real life things that will actually benefit them.

3. Encourage kids to do community college for two years then transfer to a real college to save money. The "college experience" isn't worth the price most pay.

4. Hammer it into kids' heads that unless you're going to MIT, Harvard or Yale, where you go to school doesn't matter. Your degree and the field you choose to go into matters a lot more. Require all colleges to provide what the average jobs and starting salaries are for all majors before a student is allowed to pick one.

Education is important, but the system we have today sucks.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the current education system?

#30

Post by jtcond13 »

It's too expensive, takes too long and fails to accommodate the diversity of educational needs. It also does fairly little to help people find suitable careers during adolescence.

That said, these problems are widely known and discussed. Alternatives such as Montessori education are becoming more available. Most American 18-year-olds are reasonably numerate and literate; some even manage to pick up some scientific, historical or foreign language knowledge as well.

In hindsight, the weirdest thing about it was how difficult it was to find suitable times to go to the bathroom.

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