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Fasting-like Diet Reduces Multiple Sclerosis Symptoms

neuroscientistnews.com

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Re: Fasting-like Diet Reduces Multiple Sclerosis Symptoms

#11

Post by andy_ppp »

Lxr wrote: post #8
orangegrain wrote: post #2

Isn't this obvious to anyone who follows that diet autoimmune disease? Also adrenal hormones increase during fasting, as can be commonly seen with high cortisol levels in those who fast. "All disease begins in the gut," as someone wise has said in the past.

It's usually "obvious" to people who are not affected by autoimmune disease, but diet control is generally disappointingly ineffective in reality for most patients. The truth is autoimmune disease is incredibly complex and we still don't have satisfactory treatment, diet or otherwise.

Can you point to some references to back up your claim that diet control is disappointing?

It seems to me that diet has such an enormous effect on our bodies that it should do something; I would say compliance is more the issue than its effectiveness from my reading of things.

Re: Fasting-like Diet Reduces Multiple Sclerosis Symptoms

#12

Post by [deleted] »

andy_ppp wrote: post #11
Lxr wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's usually "obvious" to people who are not affected by autoimmune disease, but diet control is generally disappointingly ineffective in reality for most patients. The truth is autoimmune disease is incredibly complex and we still don't have satisfactory treatment, diet or otherwise.

Can you point to some references to back up your claim that diet control is disappointing? It seems to me that diet has such an enormous effect on our bodies that it should do something; I would say compliance is more the issue than its effectiveness from my reading of things.

[deleted]

Re: Fasting-like Diet Reduces Multiple Sclerosis Symptoms

#13

Post by dualogy »

ams6110 wrote: post #4

What is a "fasting-like" diet? It is presumably not absolute fasting otherwise no need for the "like" qualifier.

Technically a fast-mimicking diet would be: ad-libitum fat, barely sufficient protein (such that protein recycling is maintained --- no idea how to calculate this individually), near-zero (ie. only trace) carbohydrate. I suppose zero protein would most mimick fasting if done for just a few weeks tops but once all degenerate/damaged/mutated/malfunctioning proteins have been degraded for protein recycling or gluconeogenesis, lean tissue gets catabolized and this isn't desirable.) So sounds like:

- a normal-size piece of meat or a box of eggs (or whatever concoctions the vegetationists prefer)

- unlimited ghee/tallow/lard (or whatever oils one's belief system suggests)

- water or 0kcal drinks

- and if prolonged over more than a week or 2, perhaps micronutrient supplementation

Re: Fasting-like Diet Reduces Multiple Sclerosis Symptoms

#14

Post by darawk »

tansey wrote: post #7

This seems pretty likely to be placebo effect, at least in the human trials which are the only parts of the paper I read. The paper cited [0] pre-registered on clinicaltrials.gov [1] -- which is great and everyone in the field should do so. However, looking at what they pre-registered, we have: - Two different diet treatment regimes: fasting-like for 3 months followed by Mediterranean diet (FMD), and ketogenic diet (…

There is a somewhat interesting philosophical question here. What does it mean for this result to be the 'placebo effect'?

That is, supposing it is in some sense caused by the psyche, and fasting reliably produces that effect...is there a sense in which fasting is not its cause?

Clearly for sugar pill vs drug we can measure the component which is 'placebo'. But here, since it is immeasurable...is it possible to call it a placebo effect? Or should we refer to effects derived psychologically from unique subjective experiences in another way.

Re: Fasting-like Diet Reduces Multiple Sclerosis Symptoms

#15

Post by kjhljjg »

pizza wrote: post #6
orangegrain wrote: post #2

Isn't this obvious to anyone who follows that diet autoimmune disease? Also adrenal hormones increase during fasting, as can be commonly seen with high cortisol levels in those who fast. "All disease begins in the gut," as someone wise has said in the past.

'Obvious' considered harmful, though.

agreed. nothing is obvious, everything needs to be tested

Re: Fasting-like Diet Reduces Multiple Sclerosis Symptoms

#16

Post by geocar »

ams6110 wrote: post #4

What is a "fasting-like" diet? It is presumably not absolute fasting otherwise no need for the "like" qualifier.

No. It's not absolute fasting, although I do that some times. I've been doing alternate-day fasting or a 3/5 diet, for around 6-8 months at a time, for the last several years because it makes me feel better.

There was a great program on the BBC[1] about "fasting-like diets", which generally consist of extreme caloric restriction for some time -- where what counts as "extreme" and "some time" varies from programme to programme -- and when it got to Michael's own experiments with fasting, the description of the feelings are what encouraged me to give it a try.

[1]: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvdbtt_eat-fast-live-longer...

Re: Fasting-like Diet Reduces Multiple Sclerosis Symptoms

#17

Post by tomp »

geocar wrote: post #16
ams6110 wrote: post #4

What is a "fasting-like" diet? It is presumably not absolute fasting otherwise no need for the "like" qualifier.

No. It's not absolute fasting, although I do that some times. I've been doing alternate-day fasting or a 3/5 diet, for around 6-8 months at a time, for the last several years because it makes me feel better . There was a great program on the BBC[1] about "fasting-like diets", which generally consist of extreme caloric restriction for some time -- where what counts as "extreme" and "some time" varies from programme to…

What's a 3/5 diet?

Re: Fasting-like Diet Reduces Multiple Sclerosis Symptoms

#18

Post by biot »

ams6110 wrote: post #4

What is a "fasting-like" diet? It is presumably not absolute fasting otherwise no need for the "like" qualifier.

From the paper [0]:

"Modified human fasting mimicking diet.

A single cycle of the modified fasting mimicking diet consist of Day 1 – pre-fasting followed by Day 2-8 – very low calorie diet. Day 1-prefasting consists of an 800 kcal (about 40% of normal caloric intake similar to mouse Day1 FMD) monodiet (fruit, rice, or potatoes) by preference of individuals. On the following day patients were recommended to use an oral laxative, Natrium Sulfuricum (20-40 g). FMD consisted of 100 ml vegetable broth or vegetable juice with 1 tablespoon of linseed oil 3 times daily, plus additional calorie-free liquids. The daily calorie intake was predefined with 200 – 350 kcal (10-18% of normal caloric intake similar to mouse Day 2-3 FMD). Patients were advised to drink 2-3 L of unsweetened fluids each day (water, and herbal teas) and to use an enema if tolerated. After the 7-day fasting period solid foods were stepwise reintroduced for three days, starting with a steamed apple at day 8. After the fasting and refeeding period a normocaloric, plant-based Mediterranean diet was maintained until study end."

[0] http://www.cell.com/cell-reports/pdfExtended/S2211-1247(16)3...

Re: Fasting-like Diet Reduces Multiple Sclerosis Symptoms

#19

Post by tkyjonathan »

The Swank diet and later the McDougall diet have been halting and sometimes slightly regressing MS symptoms in most cases, for decades now. The Swank diet in particular, has kept people alive with the disease for 34 years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ5NGLM1k90
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