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Boys who live with books ‘earn more as adults’

theguardian.com

71–80 of 87 posts

Re: Boys who live with books ‘earn more as adults’

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that IQ is heritable, as in the genes from your parents have a substantial effect on your IQ (leaving aside diseases), is far from established and most cognitive psychologists would violently disagree. Any effect from your parent's genes is drowned out by socioeconomic status, the environment, pollution, time, education, etc. For example, the correlation between your IQ and your cousin's IQ is almost negligi…

Wow. You need to read some behavioral genetics. Let me know if you care to. I'll give you references. They've found g heritable in primates other than humans as well. The amount of work we do to believe that biology is not a factor is stunning. This is what a 'cultural taboo' looks like.

I've read quite a bit. I have a PhD in a broadly related field. I tried to explain that you're just confused about what heritability means in this context, what the relative effect sizes are of environmental factors vs parents, that these studies have crazy confounds, and the fact that these things aren't settled and are highly controversial in academic circles but clearly that's not working.

I'll repeat something from my previous post because it's very important. When scientists talk about heritability they don't mean it the layman's sense of "these people have low IQ and that is conserved over time unless they go and breed with others". There's 0 evidence for this even if you look at a small and until recently fairly isolated population like that of Iceland. The correlation between your IQ and your cousin is almost non-existent even if you're part of the same cultural group in the same village. You're simply misinterpreting headlines without taking the time to understand what people mean.

There's no "cultural taboo" here. Scientists want to find the truth and we all work very diligently at it. We're just lucky that reality doesn't back up racist and sexist viewpoints and that the scientific evidence is clearly not on your side.

Re: Boys who live with books ‘earn more as adults’

#72
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People lower on the SES spectrum generally lack for leisure time. Where did you get this idea? It's certainly not accurate in the US.

I'd very much appreciate it if both of you present some evidence, because I now realize my vague assumptions about this are not really based on anything...

https://dqydj.com/individual-incomes-versus-the-amount-of-ho...

The general phenomenon here is very well known; just searching around for this I found stuff like "UK time use data for the period 1961-2001 do indeed indicate a reversal of the previously negative leisure/status gradient". ( https://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/files/iser_working_papers/2005-... ). But that paper is obviously more concerned with the UK than the US.

Data on this is directly available from the American Time Use Survey, if you want to tabulate it yourself -- while they do collect various data on employment status, they don't publish a summary of time use by employment status.

Re: Boys who live with books ‘earn more as adults’

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you implying here that curiosity and intellectual abilities are genetically inheritable? IQ is heritable. There's over 50 years of psychometric research showing that. > If so, what stops eugenics from being morally indefensible ? The same thing that stops the reality of weapons being a defense of murder. The saddest things about education today is that it purposefully suppresses information because it might be…

The idea that IQ is heritable, as in the genes from your parents have a substantial effect on your IQ (leaving aside diseases), is far from established and most cognitive psychologists would violently disagree. Any effect from your parent's genes is drowned out by socioeconomic status, the environment, pollution, time, education, etc. For example, the correlation between your IQ and your cousin's IQ is almost negligi…

Did you mean "vehemently disagree"?

Re: Boys who live with books ‘earn more as adults’

#74
post #14

> perhaps they gained genes from their parents that prompt both collecting books and pursuing more lucrative occupations Are you implying here that curiosity and intellectual abilities are genetically inheritable ? If so, what stops eugenics from being morally indefensible ?

Eugenics is already practiced on a small scale by individual mate selection. It is morally indefensible on a large scale because no existing large scale systems have the decision-making granularity to appropriately make those kinds of decisions, nor are those decisions relevant to what humans generally need their cultures to accomplish.

Re: Boys who live with books ‘earn more as adults’

#75
post #42

Absolutely agree with the socio-economic bit being the main factor. I wonder, however, if a minor factor is the ability to skim, which is strengthened by reading young. My girlfriend is Brazilian who speaks English well and I observe her having much more trouble doing basic research and gathering random knowledge simply because she is much slower skimming in English. Whether it's looking for a restaurant or figuring…

Dude, that's kind of funny. It's like you even answered your own question already in the question itself. And didn't even notice it. Judging by my own experience it's not so much the age part but the foreign language part the comes into play. ;)

Re: Boys who live with books ‘earn more as adults’

#76
post #14

> perhaps they gained genes from their parents that prompt both collecting books and pursuing more lucrative occupations Are you implying here that curiosity and intellectual abilities are genetically inheritable ? If so, what stops eugenics from being morally indefensible ?

"Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11794723 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Boys who live with books ‘earn more as adults’

#77

I'm delighted that my three boys and one girl have grown up or are still growing up in a house full of books in English, Chinese, German, and other languages. Sure enough, my oldest son makes a fine income as a hacker--but wait, I grew up in a house full of books too, and I've NEVER made as much money as he already makes. A correlational study like this can't show us the path of causation, if any. Any behavior geneti…

There could also be a simpler causal link: books and lucrative jobs could both caused by higher family socio-economic status.

I'm pretty sure the study controls for that. It's too obvious an important factor. They probably control for parental education level too.

Re: Boys who live with books ‘earn more as adults’

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that IQ is heritable, as in the genes from your parents have a substantial effect on your IQ (leaving aside diseases), is far from established and most cognitive psychologists would violently disagree. Any effect from your parent's genes is drowned out by socioeconomic status, the environment, pollution, time, education, etc. For example, the correlation between your IQ and your cousin's IQ is almost negligi…

Did you mean "vehemently disagree"?

I meant violently, although politically not physically. People are quite aware that science was perverted once to justify racism and sexism and that scientists everywhere did inhuman things to subjects even very recently (at small scales some unscrupulous scientists continue to do pretty evil things that harm subjects but nowhere near the kinds of things that used to happen). Every student that runs human subjects experiments has to take a mandatory course about this now so that we don't go down this route again (at least in the US, I assume Canada/EU have the same rules but I don't have firsthand experience).

People would be quite upset if someone started to justify racism or sexism with science once more. Take the example of Larry Summers who had to resign from his position as president of Harvard because of a lunchtime talk where he made reference to science that he interprets to support a sexist position that women are inferior to men. That's a (at least politically) violent (and in my opinion correct) reaction. So it's not that people would just disagree. They would happily damage or end someone's career over it.

Re: Boys who live with books ‘earn more as adults’

#79

I'm delighted that my three boys and one girl have grown up or are still growing up in a house full of books in English, Chinese, German, and other languages. Sure enough, my oldest son makes a fine income as a hacker--but wait, I grew up in a house full of books too, and I've NEVER made as much money as he already makes. A correlational study like this can't show us the path of causation, if any. Any behavior geneti…

>A correlational study like this can't show us the path of causation, if any.

I'd bet the causation is that wealthy people read.

Re: Boys who live with books ‘earn more as adults’

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you implying here that curiosity and intellectual abilities are genetically inheritable? IQ is heritable. There's over 50 years of psychometric research showing that. > If so, what stops eugenics from being morally indefensible ? The same thing that stops the reality of weapons being a defense of murder. The saddest things about education today is that it purposefully suppresses information because it might be…

The idea that IQ is heritable, as in the genes from your parents have a substantial effect on your IQ (leaving aside diseases), is far from established and most cognitive psychologists would violently disagree. Any effect from your parent's genes is drowned out by socioeconomic status, the environment, pollution, time, education, etc. For example, the correlation between your IQ and your cousin's IQ is almost negligi…

Can you link some papers or articles on this side of the debate?
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