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You can’t replace your face, says face recognition

blog.kaspersky.com

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Re: You can’t replace your face, says face recognition

#31

Post by Natanael_L »

gcr wrote: post #28
rmoriz wrote: post #5

Besides this "regular" use-case there was recently a case when some former adult performer was doxxed using face recognition: http://fusion.net/story/295539/ntechlab-findface-facial-reco... Now, most of you probably don't care enough, only some are doing adult stuff. But let's imagine such a complete image/id database comes into hands of a bad regime. Most countries already collect and save biometric photos not even…

Fingerprints also have this issue. You only get ten of them that should last your entire life. With cooperation, we can build 'revocable biometrics' that mix faces and fingerprints with a password or PIN. To revoke your biometric, simply forget your PIN. The only thing you can do with these models is verify your claimed identity. They can't be used for search. So they're great for users, but not so great for evil est…

That's basically a hardware token with fingerprint readers. Smartcard versions already exists of that.

Re: You can’t replace your face, says face recognition

#33

Post by nevir »

rmoriz wrote: post #5

Besides this "regular" use-case there was recently a case when some former adult performer was doxxed using face recognition: http://fusion.net/story/295539/ntechlab-findface-facial-reco... Now, most of you probably don't care enough, only some are doing adult stuff. But let's imagine such a complete image/id database comes into hands of a bad regime. Most countries already collect and save biometric photos not even…

Assume it will happen. The technology is there, and there is sufficient motivation (both for "good" uses and "nefarious" ones).

What should we change in our behavior?

(I'm not talking about intentionally obscuring photos of ones self, but more about how systems like these will effect society)

Re: You can’t replace your face, says face recognition

#34

Post by jwatte »

A face, or a fingerprint, or a social security number, is like a username, not like a password.

Separately, simple facial recognition cameras can be fooled with printed photographs. Will 3d printing in elastomers let us fool whatever countermeasures are being developed against that?

Separately, we need to get started on building a society where we all are comfortable and safe without privacy, because privacy is dying. Trying to save it is like trying to provide subsidies for horse carriage manufacturers in the age of the car.

Re: You can’t replace your face, says face recognition

#35

Post by maxander »

jwatte wrote: post #34

A face, or a fingerprint, or a social security number, is like a username, not like a password. Separately, simple facial recognition cameras can be fooled with printed photographs. Will 3d printing in elastomers let us fool whatever countermeasures are being developed against that? Separately, we need to get started on building a society where we all are comfortable and safe without privacy, because privacy is dying…

I don't see how your first two points are relevant to the article- it never discusses face detection use as a password, only as a means of indexing into social networks. ("Only.")

Regarding your third point, sadly, such a society is still so far away as to be essentially inconceivable. Most people don't trust their governments, and only the most forward-thinking segments of society are even tolerant of the range of cultural, sexual, and religious lifestyles that real humans live. We're going to have to find ways to subsidize those horse carriages for a long time to come.

Re: You can’t replace your face, says face recognition

#36

Post by woodman »

jwatte wrote: post #34

A face, or a fingerprint, or a social security number, is like a username, not like a password. Separately, simple facial recognition cameras can be fooled with printed photographs. Will 3d printing in elastomers let us fool whatever countermeasures are being developed against that? Separately, we need to get started on building a society where we all are comfortable and safe without privacy, because privacy is dying…

> ...we need to get started on building a society...

Well the "comfortable" part of that makes it impossible, because of the whole chilling effect thing surround private thoughts and activities necessary for building a basic personality. The "safe" part is certainly doable though, but fans of government prosecution will be disappointed. I don't care if the Girl Scouts of America have a copy of my browser history, because they can't do anything with it - but an agent of the state certainly can. Not because there is anything presently illegal in the browser history, but the simple combination of information + uncertainty + power = bad time for the lesser-thans.

Re: You can’t replace your face, says face recognition

#37

Post by xapata »

woodman wrote: post #36
jwatte wrote: post #34

A face, or a fingerprint, or a social security number, is like a username, not like a password. Separately, simple facial recognition cameras can be fooled with printed photographs. Will 3d printing in elastomers let us fool whatever countermeasures are being developed against that? Separately, we need to get started on building a society where we all are comfortable and safe without privacy, because privacy is dying…

> ...we need to get started on building a society... Well the "comfortable" part of that makes it impossible, because of the whole chilling effect thing surround private thoughts and activities necessary for building a basic personality. The "safe" part is certainly doable though, but fans of government prosecution will be disappointed. I don't care if the Girl Scouts of America have a copy of my browser history, bec…

But if the Girl Scouts also have a copy, that could help protect you if a state agent accuses you of something. The danger is a state monopoly on information.

Re: You can’t replace your face, says face recognition

#38

Post by rmoriz »

venomsnake wrote: post #23
rmoriz wrote: post #5

Besides this "regular" use-case there was recently a case when some former adult performer was doxxed using face recognition: http://fusion.net/story/295539/ntechlab-findface-facial-reco... Now, most of you probably don't care enough, only some are doing adult stuff. But let's imagine such a complete image/id database comes into hands of a bad regime. Most countries already collect and save biometric photos not even…

You can bribe someone to put fake data in the database next to your name.

This may look like an option, but once technology has a low failure rate, everything that doesn't match or that does seem unusual will trigger an alarm.

Just watch the airport security checks after 9/11 when entering the US: Either you provide a biometric passport accept x-ray radiation or you will be personally annoyed… for your own safety, of course. I believe this is not because of any bad intention, however it trains people to accept such strict rules and when it works there, why not enforce it in other parts of our civil life?

For example after some madman shot at a german court house a couple of years ago, they started mandatory checks on every single court house as well.

Another case from Germany: We have started to collect car plates from trucks on the Autobahn because of a new electronic toll system (only to catch trucks that don't have the onboard unit activated, no regular use case for visual checks). Of course those car plate recognition software by design is also able to save car plates… of course everything will be deleted… really? It might be true for the moment, but in the future?

Re: You can’t replace your face, says face recognition

#39

Post by existencebox »

jwatte wrote: post #34

A face, or a fingerprint, or a social security number, is like a username, not like a password. Separately, simple facial recognition cameras can be fooled with printed photographs. Will 3d printing in elastomers let us fool whatever countermeasures are being developed against that? Separately, we need to get started on building a society where we all are comfortable and safe without privacy, because privacy is dying…

"... privacy is dying ..." Even without discussing the merits of the idea, this is one of the most defeatist sentiments I've heard lately, and I'm an eternal pessimist. Privacy will not be dead so long as I have any say in how I live my life. Call me a tin foil hatter, but anonymizing/removing my internet/societal fingerprint, preferring higher anonymity when performing transactions, and taking steps to minimize my overall public profile are all actions I can, will, and do take until the day I die to sustain my personal privacy, and I will take any opportunities I have to impact change to support privacy on a broader scale.

Again, while the intrinsic benefits of privacy are discussed at length by those far more able to eloquently defend it than I, I instead make a far more tractable statement: My quest privacy will be dead when I am, and if that makes me isomorphic to a Luddite, I readily accept that hypocrisy. (Being progress seeking in almost any other domain I can think of.) There is too much benefit to privacy given the current power asymmetries, social climate, and frank human nature for me to ever give it up, for myself and others.

(as a postscript, your statement re: biomentrics as UID is absolutely right, albeit a bit repeated ad nauseum within HN nowadays, I just wanted to enunciate my distaste for any sentiment suggesting we accept a loss of privacy)

Re: You can’t replace your face, says face recognition

#40

Post by woodman »

xapata wrote: post #37
woodman wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...we need to get started on building a society... Well the "comfortable" part of that makes it impossible, because of the whole chilling effect thing surround private thoughts and activities necessary for building a basic personality. The "safe" part is certainly doable though, but fans of government prosecution will be disappointed. I don't care if the Girl Scouts of America have a copy of my browser history, bec…

But if the Girl Scouts also have a copy, that could help protect you if a state agent accuses you of something. The danger is a state monopoly on information.

> The danger is a state monopoly on information.

While the monopoly makes the situation worse, what you are suggesting depends on the state being subject to some form of universal justice - which isn't the case. States pull that sort of crap all the time and rarely are there any consequences for bald-faced lying to the public.

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