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Gchat Was the Future of Messaging, but Google Didn’t Know

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Re: Gchat Was the Future of Messaging, but Google Didn’t Know

#201
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It amazes me how many people think that ending GChat/XMPP federation was the result of some kind of cigar smoking, moustache-twirling "evil". I worked at Google at the time. It was killed for engineering reasons, that boiled down to: 1. Nobody used federation. 2. Except spammers. They used it a lot. Trying to keep federation alive whilst fighting spammers took a lot of effort. 3. It complicated the code a lot. Featur…

> It already happened for personal correspondence (facebook) and I'm sure at some point it'll happen for work correspondence too. I don't know the numbers but I'm part of the population that never used Facebook, so I'm unconvinced you can generalize like that. > Put simply, in a world where clients are all free and the identifier of choice is the phone number, federation doesn't add much value. I didn't really unders…

Moxie's argument is that interop takes place at the level of the operating system's notification tray.

If you want to make a better WhatsApp, all you have to do is ... build a better app. The traditional obstacles are largely gone in the mobile world:

• You can access the same social graph just by requesting the contacts permission on your mobile phone: it's not like Facebook where the social network is locked away.

• You don't have to go through some slow moving standards process which takes years to get the features into the most widely used clients like you would if trying to improve XMPP.

• There's no cost to the user having multiple messaging apps installed thanks to Google/Apple's push networks: it's not like Windows/MacOS/Linux where having an app running in the background uses resources and requires permanent on-screen reminders of the resource wastage. So it's easy to get the user to set up your app.

• Notifications will appear in the same place the user is looking for them no matter what.

• You can (on Android) register for the right intents and whenever a friends phone number is invoked, your app will be offered as an option, so there's no lockin there either.

These things together mean the traditional reasons for pursuing federated networks for chat (the avoidance of lockin) are largely irrelevant.

Re: Gchat Was the Future of Messaging, but Google Didn’t Know

#202

I love Gmail and wish Hangouts got more love. Obviously Gmail is hugely successful in email, and an email address is identity for most services. On the other hand, mobile is where the puck is going, and the base identity for mobile is phone number. Hence, Allo and Duo. I am loyal to Hangouts because everything I read and write becomes easily searchable. I don't want to lose all that history. And it also sounds like a…

> On the other hand, mobile is where the puck is going, and the base identity for mobile is phone number.

I don't get this. Just because you're using a device that has historically been tied to a specific method of identification doesn't mean that you have to limit yourself to that? Should desktop chat clients start only identifying people by IP addresses?

Re: Gchat Was the Future of Messaging, but Google Didn’t Know

#203
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great theory. Except that outside the US people who are FB friends tell each other "I want to chat, give me your number so I can add you on WhatsApp". Outside the US, WhatsApp is winning because of network effects.

> Outside the US, WhatsApp is winning because of network effects. In which country? Because I have tons of messengers installed and so do most people I know outside the US.

Literally most countries in the world: http://www.techtimes.com/articles/160897/20160525/top-messag...

Sure, I have messenger and hangouts and telegram as well, but WhatsApp is like a primary mode of communication.

Re: Gchat Was the Future of Messaging, but Google Didn’t Know

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> […] in a world where clients are all free and the identifier of choice is the phone number […] To me this translates to: “Please run our proprietary software to participate and use a high-value nearly unique identifier to identify yourself — we really like to know that john.doe@gmail.com is the same person as feetfetish33 so we can better quantify you for targeted advertising.” I am willing to entertain the notion…

I have yet to encounter a chat network that uses targeted advertising, so you're well off into the realm of conspiracy theories there. Chat networks are all moving to the use of phone numbers because users mobile phonebooks are a vendor neutral, open access social network of high value contacts that almost everyone has and for which there are simple APIs available. Phone numbers have other advantages. They are diffic…

Phones are dying. Too inconvenient, too much spam, pants vendors, pervasive surveillance, pants call and voice quality, and a phone is too small for a tablet.

It's got a few years yet, but POTS and mobile are already legacy, they just don't know it yet.

Re: Gchat Was the Future of Messaging, but Google Didn’t Know

#205
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great theory. Except that outside the US people who are FB friends tell each other "I want to chat, give me your number so I can add you on WhatsApp". Outside the US, WhatsApp is winning because of network effects.

> Outside the US, WhatsApp is winning because of network effects. In which country? Because I have tons of messengers installed and so do most people I know outside the US.

I know that WhatsApp is immensely popular in Germany. Most of my friends (me too) don't even have Facebook, and those who do, don't even use it regularly.

WhatsApp on the other hand, is more trusted than Email - When some friend sends me an email, he asks me via WhatsApp if I revived it.

Group Chats, especially with younger folks, are numerous and used for anything, even though the technology is obviously lacking, when compared to other platforms.

But most people either don't care, or perceive these benefits as less important compared to the network effect that WhatsApp has - "I don't want to switch between [random messaging app] and WhatsApp, why don't you just accept what everyone uses".

It's practically the same as with Facebook in the US, and just as bad.

Re: Gchat Was the Future of Messaging, but Google Didn’t Know

#206

Slack nailed it with the notion of teams. You invite someone into a team and there's an instant tachonomy of conversation to join. The ability to be in multiple teams at once is hugely helpful as well.

Tachonomy isn't the word you meant to use there. In fact, it's not a word.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tachonomy

Re: Gchat Was the Future of Messaging, but Google Didn’t Know

#207

We already have a perfect messaging system that is fully interoperatble, works, is relieable and doesn't need a new account because everybody has one: emails. You can perfectly chat with emails, the problem are that all clients make you use emails as digital letters instead of chats. But you could perfectly imagine an email client doing what gchat used to do.

Kinda. But much as I've appreciated it, for 30+ years now, SMTP is old and in the way.

Something secure, flexible, workable, and open needs to replace it.

Re: Gchat Was the Future of Messaging, but Google Didn’t Know

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

inputmice: I hear your Conversations app is really nice, and it's great to see XMPP is evolving well. Rather than being defensive about XMPP and badmouthing matrix, perhaps we can just bridge both ecosystems and both sides and clients benefit from wider reach? Especially when some tech like interoperable E2E ratchet implementations is of direct use for both ecosystems. The two protocols have entirely different design…

I'm not bad mouthing anything. It's just that Matrix doesn't solve any problems XMPP hasn't already solved or could have solved with an extension. Matrix is basically a pointer to a stream of messages. You could have easily made this into a XEP. In fact there have been ideas in the XMPP community called MAM subscriptions that are basically the same thing. Even if that extension would have been a radical change in C2S…

Claiming that matrix needs 5-10 years to be 'usable' seemed to be unnecessarily and unproductively negative, hence my objection to badmouthing when we could instead be working together productively :) The last thing decentralised comms needs is in-fighting.

I think the root of the contention here is that you don't seem to understand what Matrix does - this is probably my fault for failing to explain it better to you in person at FOSDEM. It is not a pointer to a stream of messages. The whole point is to store arbitrary data (e.g. room history and state) as a directed acyclic graph shared over all the participating servers. It's a big distributed datastructure with eventual consistency semantics which happens to be usable for chat. Or any other kind of real-time requirements.

If you wanted to compare it to a XEP, then FMUC would be a better comparison than MAM subscriptions. And yes, you're right that one could have built it on top of the XEP stack of standards, just like FMUC did. We could also have layered it on top of IRC. Or IMAP. Or NNTP. Or ZMQ. Or MSRP. Or Psyc etc.

Instead, we chose to layer on HTTP in order to keep it as simple as possible - we simply don't need most of the abstractions that XMPP provides. And we believe it's easier for a protocol to get traction if it has a single monolithic spec which defines feature compatibility profiles for interop than if it's a huge collection of optional extensions.

In the end, these are both subjective opinions, but I see no harm in there being two different philosophies out there for solving the problem of interoperable communication. Especially as it's not a competition, given both can 'win' by bridging together.

Re: Gchat Was the Future of Messaging, but Google Didn’t Know

#209
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It already happened for personal correspondence (facebook) and I'm sure at some point it'll happen for work correspondence too. I don't know the numbers but I'm part of the population that never used Facebook, so I'm unconvinced you can generalize like that. > Put simply, in a world where clients are all free and the identifier of choice is the phone number, federation doesn't add much value. I didn't really unders…

Moxie's argument is that interop takes place at the level of the operating system's notification tray. If you want to make a better WhatsApp, all you have to do is ... build a better app. The traditional obstacles are largely gone in the mobile world: • You can access the same social graph just by requesting the contacts permission on your mobile phone: it's not like Facebook where the social network is locked away.…

That makes more sense, thanks.

Re sharing contacts by replacing User@Domain with numbers:

Yes, this solves some of it because everyone agreed to use phone numbers, but phone numbers are a thing of the past and you don't always want to share your phone number just for messaging.

Re notification overhead:

If you have a system-wide notification display system, then of course the resources it requires are limited but you still have to have it running in the background in some form. Granted, it's probably easier to optimize it with everyone using the same notification system. This is just consolidation of a popular feature into system-provided functionality.

Re lockin:

But lockin still exists because you are the whim of centrally managed for-profit messaging backends, operated by entities whose intentions may not necessarily align with yours.

I'm not aware of cross-app synchronization of messages and even less so a common message format (feature) set supported by all that provides a rich experience.

I don't disagree with the cited shortcomings of XMPP, though you can always find a flaw in something which wasn't explicitly designed for the current use case, so ignoring that, the basic premise of XMPP is still sound and needed. Implementation details are something else, and honestly I don't agree that replacing XML with JSON (as in some of the proposals) gains anything in terms of efficiency, which it probably wasn't intended to anyway.

My impression is that building a messaging system is simple enough that many variants pop pup, but almost all of them get interoperability, synchronization, mobility, and security wrong. It's unsurprising because the simplicity attracts implementers of all domain experience levels.

Re: Gchat Was the Future of Messaging, but Google Didn’t Know

#210
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Email isn't fast enough. Gchat was/is faster.

Text messages are very slow, and nobody minds. People on iMessage don't see the difference. It's more a metter of perception. When you click on a mail, it takes a lot of time to type, then your UI have a delay to say it's sent, then you have this time taken by many clients to move your mail to the proper folder. But a proper mail-chat client would just make the message appear as sent, then to all the stuff in backgro…

This application appears to do pretty much what you're suggesting:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pingapp.ap...

Unfortunately, my colleagues insist upon using Skype instead of email, apart from the few I've persuaded to use Google hangouts instead.

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