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An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

reuters.com

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Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#181

Post by studentrob »

ken47 wrote: post #178
Snargorf wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-Chinese students also have those same problems, but they don't cheat like the Chinese. Chinese students cheat because cheating is part of Chinese culture. Go to China and you'll be shocked at how little people care about others in public, or society at large. This is a place where bystanders will watch cars swerve wildly around an open manhole cover over and over, nearly getting in accidents, doing nothing to hel…

I went to a privileged American school where cheating was not uncommon. I watched at least two students openly cheat their way into Ivy League colleges, whose rich parents ensured they were unscathed when they were caught. I watched students with inferior intellect, but superior connections, finesse their way into colleges beyond their pay grade. I sure as heck hope foreigners don't judge me based on their encounters…

EDIT: Ignore this exchange. I misinterpreted the parent comment (see down below)

> So let's try to avoid taking the most extreme headlines ever written about modern China and painting all Chinese with a single stroke. The 1900s are over.

The article and headline seem balanced to me.

I find this accusation of racism common in response to articles critical of Chinese. Perhaps you misunderstand the text.

The implied word in the headline is some, not all,

"How an industry helps [some] Chinese students cheat their way into and through U.S. colleges"

Does that make it more clear? If not, then how, in your view, could this headline be rewritten to not be racist?

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#182

Post by ken47 »

studentrob wrote: post #181
ken47 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a privileged American school where cheating was not uncommon. I watched at least two students openly cheat their way into Ivy League colleges, whose rich parents ensured they were unscathed when they were caught. I watched students with inferior intellect, but superior connections, finesse their way into colleges beyond their pay grade. I sure as heck hope foreigners don't judge me based on their encounters…

EDIT: Ignore this exchange. I misinterpreted the parent comment (see down below) > So let's try to avoid taking the most extreme headlines ever written about modern China and painting all Chinese with a single stroke. The 1900s are over. The article and headline seem balanced to me. I find this accusation of racism common in response to articles critical of Chinese. Perhaps you misunderstand the text. The implied wor…

The fact that I was talking about a different topic aside, of course we don't expect the headlines to be balanced. The virtue of fairness is at odds with the financial benefits of controversial wording.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#183

Post by studentrob »

paradite wrote: post #160
studentrob wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a good point that one solution to this problem is getting the incoming Chinese students a better English education. They obviously don't really have it before arriving, and schools want their tuition. Schools should enroll Chinese students in English education for 3-6 months prior to the beginning of the term.

I absolutely agree with you on this.

Cool. A big thing about learning language is getting the confidence to speak. You can get that by practicing with some native speakers.

In the classroom, if students don't feel comfortable speaking, they won't ask questions. If they don't ask questions, they won't learn as well as they could by asking.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#184

Post by studentrob »

fatman13gg wrote: post #180
studentrob wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.... with the US degree they have a chance to get a job in the US with a higher salary

I said "those came back to China". Most undergrad went back to China eventually. Just compare the number of Chinese students given in the article and the number of H1-B visa issued every year. Do the math.

Oh I see.. you're saying, the article claims students have a better chance of getting a job in the US, but in reality, the chance is not so great since H1-B visas are limited.

Are you happy that you studied in the US? Or do you think it was not worth it? Just curious.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#185

Post by studentrob »

ken47 wrote: post #182
studentrob wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: Ignore this exchange. I misinterpreted the parent comment (see down below) > So let's try to avoid taking the most extreme headlines ever written about modern China and painting all Chinese with a single stroke. The 1900s are over. The article and headline seem balanced to me. I find this accusation of racism common in response to articles critical of Chinese. Perhaps you misunderstand the text. The implied wor…

The fact that I was talking about a different topic aside, of course we don't expect the headlines to be balanced. The virtue of fairness is at odds with the financial benefits of controversial wording.

> The virtue of fairness is at odds with the financial benefits of controversial wording.

Agreed. You said someone was "painting all Chinese with a single stroke". I don't see that. Which words specifically do you find controversial?

Or, do you just dislike the premise of the article? In that case, if you could rewrite an article like this, how would you write it, generally speaking?

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#186

Post by a_puppy »

tdeck wrote: post #89
mrep wrote: post #53

I went to a public university with a large international population and this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. A lot of the international students were extremely poor at english. One of the guys on my software project team was an international student who confirmed that it was very easy to pay someone to take the english proficiency exam. Us Americans aren't so innocent though. The amount of adderall/vyvanse/rita…

These types of discussions always depress me. You'd think from reading them that everyone has cheated or popped some Adderall at some point, and it's a normal part of college. Is that really true? I never have, unless you count making up excuses for turning in the occasional thing late. I worked hard in school and got decent but not amazing grades (3.7 something). When I hear this shit it makes me feel like I was pla…

I've never cheated or taken non-caffeine stimulants. I haven't seen anyone around me cheat. As a TA grading other students' work, I caught three students cheating out of ~40 whose work I graded. I did see another student taking Adderall once.

So, while cheating and stimulants are not unheard-of, they certainly aren't normal where I am. It probably varies from school to school, though.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#187

Post by thaumasiotes »

stvswn wrote: post #36
godzillabrennus wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I share your sentiment. My sibling did Dartmouth for undergrad, Harvard and MIT for graduate school. I bootstrapped and sold a handful of companies after dropping out of college. People need information to judge and trust others by. Information about ones capabilities should be verifiable by your accomplishments. At the start of a career though you have no accomplishments. Companies, especially larger more establishe…

This is absolutely true, but it's not only about being risk averse in hiring -- it's about outsourcing your selection process to the universities. If you had to find 100 young people to be the next class of analysts at your fancy consulting firm, where would you start looking? It just makes sense to go to the places where high-achieving young people congregate. There's not a better system (maybe standardized testing…

> maybe standardized testing would work, but that doesn't solve the problem

What problem do you mean?

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#188

Post by hackaflocka »

dogma1138 wrote: post #126
hackaflocka wrote: post #85

Can confirm. I'm a professor at a US university. One class of 40 students, about 20 were Chinese foreign students. Turns out, they were each doing 40+ credits that semester. About 20+ from the U.S. university, and about 20+ from a Chinese university (online). How's that possible? They were sharing assignments and exams. Each one had the responsibility to do the same assignment and exam over and over for about half a…

Isn't that kinda counter productive? I would assume that a degree from a US university would count for much more which is part of the reason why so many of the Chinese upper class are sending their children to the US - the stamp on the paper is worth more than the actual education.

Yeah -- I wondered about that too. I think they were aiming to familiarize themselves with the U.S. as much as possible, in as short a time for as little money as possible. I think their real aim was a graduate program in the U.S. You'd be surprised at how much easier it is to get into a graduate program here if you're already here.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#189

Post by MarkPNeyer »

studentrob wrote: post #185
ken47 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that I was talking about a different topic aside, of course we don't expect the headlines to be balanced. The virtue of fairness is at odds with the financial benefits of controversial wording.

> The virtue of fairness is at odds with the financial benefits of controversial wording. Agreed. You said someone was "painting all Chinese with a single stroke". I don't see that. Which words specifically do you find controversial? Or, do you just dislike the premise of the article? In that case, if you could rewrite an article like this, how would you write it, generally speaking?

Ken47's comment was in reply to another comment, not the article. The other comment said "cheating is just part of Chinese culture" and Ken47 was disagreeing.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#190

Post by troisx »

s_baby wrote: post #27

The international students have unreasonably high standards for maintaining financial assistance and staying out of academic probation(3.5-3.8 at my university). By design college courses give work just a little beyond what a student can reasonably accomplish(with a "good" grade) and curve accordingly. These kids aren't just cheating they are marginalizing students who are honest or don't have this kind of social acc…

Maybe that's a sign that these people shouldn't be cheating to get into a school that they can't work their way out of. These aren't victims, they're cheaters taking spots from other people.
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