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An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

reuters.com

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Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#171

Post by rtpg »

whatshisface wrote: post #113
darawk wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, there is a difference between adderall and actual cheating. One of these is a thing that helps you do your own work better, and the other is hiring someone else to do your work for you. One of these things is fraudulent, and the other is simply performance enhancement. Taking Adderall to study doesn't make you less competent at the subject in question, whereas cheating your way through tests does.

>"Taking Adderall to study doesn't make you less competent at the subject in question" What happens when you stop taking it? We frown upon doping in school for the same reason we frown upon it in sports. It creates an environment where people are forced to deal with the side effects to compete, or receive a lower grade. Employers will expect that you continue your performance outside of school. If you stop doping aft…

Plus, since Adderall and the like are in limited supply, you're preventing people who actually need it to function from getting the access they need.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#173

Post by ascorbic »

jchiu1106 wrote: post #133

As a former Chinese international student graduated from one of the top Canadian universities with distinction, I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, the toxic culture permeated the Chinese visa student community is definitely responsible for the high rate of cheating. Most Chinese visa students came to study in the west did not came to pursue academic excellence. They (and their parents most likely) see it…

I understand your frustration. The difference is at least clear to most other students, even if it's not so clear elsewhere. When I attended university in the UK about ten years ago, about 1/3 of the students on my course were Chinese. Unfortunately I reckon the majority of these were suspect. Many could barely speak English, and when doing group work would contribute to the written work in broken English, but then mysteriously submit flawlessly written final work. However there were several Chinese students who were clearly smart and doing their own work, but these were sadly very much in the minority. There were lots of other international students and none of the rest were suspect. I'm not saying there was no other cheating as I'm sure there was, but none of the rest made me wonder how they even got onto the course, let alone maintained good grades.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#174

Post by studentrob »

paradite wrote: post #159
sheepmullet wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is a good indicator when studying in an English speaking country. If you can't understand the lecturer, the tutor, the homework, the assignments, the exams, the study material, other students etc, then you are incredibly unlikely to be learning a whole lot.

You raised a valid point. I agree that the level of English proficiency would have an impact on the effectiveness of learning. However my main point is that the poor command of language should not be confused with poor knowledge on the subject domain. For example, a PhD student who just arrived at US may not be able to communicate well enough in English to articulate his/her thoughts, but that by no means is an indic…

> a PhD student who just arrived at US may not be able to communicate well enough in English to articulate his/her thoughts, but that by no means is an indicator that the person has poor knowledge on his main research topic.

I don't see any part of the article that makes that assumption.

If you don't understand the test, there's no way to verify if you know the subject matter being tested. Cheating is cheating

Chinese students certainly have it rough and are being underserved by China, America, and themselves. Americans are trying to help by opening up institutions. Perhaps they should offer more English language programs at the beginning for these students. Students could help themselves more by asking for help with English rather than cheating.

The CPC could open up its media more so that more Chinese people can learn English by watching American TV shows, for example. Many of the best English speakers I've met in my travels through Asia grew up watching American TV. Others learned from churches. Unfortunately, China cracks down heavily on both organized religion and media.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#175

Post by tzs »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #149
Snargorf wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-Chinese students also have those same problems, but they don't cheat like the Chinese. Chinese students cheat because cheating is part of Chinese culture. Go to China and you'll be shocked at how little people care about others in public, or society at large. This is a place where bystanders will watch cars swerve wildly around an open manhole cover over and over, nearly getting in accidents, doing nothing to hel…

> Chinese students cheat because cheating is part of Chinese culture. Go to China and you'll be shocked at how little people care about others in public, or society at large. I am Chinese and I would respectfully disagree that cheating is some part of Chinese culture. The only example you gave was basically the bystander effect in action, which you then ascribe to... cheating somehow? Moral depravity of millions of p…

> I am Chinese and I would respectfully disagree that cheating is some part of Chinese culture.

I'm not sure what it takes for something to be considered part of a culture, but academic cheating is very widespread in China to the point that there can be strong resistance to local or regional efforts to curb it on the grounds that this will put those who are prevented from cheating at an unfair disadvantage due to the widespread cheating by those outside their region [1].

There's also a plagiarism problem in China, and cultural factors are a major reason for this [2]. More on the scientific plagiarism and fraud problems in China: [3] [4] [5] [6]

[1] http://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/06/heres-the-q...

[2] http://www.npr.org/2011/08/03/138937778/plagiarism-plague-hi...

[3] http://www.ibtimes.com/chinas-scientific-credibility-marred-...

[4] http://www.economist.com/news/china/21586845-flawed-system-j...

[5] http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/10/copycat-papers-flag-c...

[6] http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/07/world/asia/07fraud.html?pa...

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#176

Post by venomsnake »

mrep wrote: post #53

I went to a public university with a large international population and this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. A lot of the international students were extremely poor at english. One of the guys on my software project team was an international student who confirmed that it was very easy to pay someone to take the english proficiency exam. Us Americans aren't so innocent though. The amount of adderall/vyvanse/rita…

Where I live the modus operandi is amphetamines 48 hours before exam with aspirin. Study without sleeping. Take exam. Sleep. Forget everything. At least the kids don't do it for important professions - the ones I knew did it were mostly medical students and civil engineers /s.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#177

Post by corv »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #149
Snargorf wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-Chinese students also have those same problems, but they don't cheat like the Chinese. Chinese students cheat because cheating is part of Chinese culture. Go to China and you'll be shocked at how little people care about others in public, or society at large. This is a place where bystanders will watch cars swerve wildly around an open manhole cover over and over, nearly getting in accidents, doing nothing to hel…

> Chinese students cheat because cheating is part of Chinese culture. Go to China and you'll be shocked at how little people care about others in public, or society at large. I am Chinese and I would respectfully disagree that cheating is some part of Chinese culture. The only example you gave was basically the bystander effect in action, which you then ascribe to... cheating somehow? Moral depravity of millions of p…

Having also spent time at a Chinese university and seen rampant cheating of Chinese students in my home country I must respectfully disagree with you.

Currently there is a major lack of ethical behavior in mainland China. Hong Kong and Singapore are nothing like this.

I sincerely hope that China will become aware of the issue and be able to improve.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#178

Post by ken47 »

Snargorf wrote: post #143
kirrent wrote: post #12

Australia is also a popular destination for Chinese students and sees high rates of cheating for many of the same reasons as those given in the article. Poor language skills allowed by lax student visa requirements, isolation, and the high penalties for failing a course when your family is paying full price creates desperation. 4 corners did a pretty good story on it and the smh investigation into MyMaster was also p…

Non-Chinese students also have those same problems, but they don't cheat like the Chinese. Chinese students cheat because cheating is part of Chinese culture. Go to China and you'll be shocked at how little people care about others in public, or society at large. This is a place where bystanders will watch cars swerve wildly around an open manhole cover over and over, nearly getting in accidents, doing nothing to hel…

I went to a privileged American school where cheating was not uncommon. I watched at least two students openly cheat their way into Ivy League colleges, whose rich parents ensured they were unscathed when they were caught. I watched students with inferior intellect, but superior connections, finesse their way into colleges beyond their pay grade. I sure as heck hope foreigners don't judge me based on their encounters with these sorts of Americans. As a side note, none of these students happened to be Chinese.

So let's try to avoid taking the most extreme headlines ever written about modern China and painting all Chinese with a single stroke. The 1900s are over.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#179

Post by studentrob »

sytelus wrote: post #18
hoodoof wrote: post #13

I know its naive but I find it really hard to understand why people value the piece of paper more than the knowledge. The good news is that you can't cheat as a software developer. Or maybe you can? Depressing thought.

It's usually their rich parents who value piece of paper, not students themselves as much.

And, parents are told that their kids need this paper. Test-prep businesses, like the one mentioned in the article, tell them that in order to drum up business.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#180

Post by fatman13gg »

studentrob wrote: post #162
fatman13gg wrote: post #93

> U.S. universities offer an easier way to get ahead, with a quality education and better job prospects. The better job prospects part might not be true. Those came back to China for jobs will get their current position with or without a U.S. degree.

.... with the US degree they have a chance to get a job in the US with a higher salary

I said "those came back to China". Most undergrad went back to China eventually. Just compare the number of Chinese students given in the article and the number of H1-B visa issued every year. Do the math.
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