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Apple Not Able to Open Stores in India Without Selling 30% Locally Sourced Goods

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Re: Apple Not Able to Open Stores in India Without Selling 30% Locally Sourced Goods

#61
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do Apple's products qualify as "cutting-edge technology"? Or, phrased differently, would Samsung also qualify? HTC? LG? What differentiates "cutting-edge" from "just another widget" in the consumer electronics sector?

I know people who work as "fixers" specializing in navigating such government restrictions and bureaucracy for local and foreign companies in India. It is more likely that the real reason for Apple's rejection is the whim of some high level bureaucrat ("IAS officer"). It may not even be corruption, even righteous bureaucrats are often stupid. The amount of red-tape in India is astounding.

On the contrary, my guess would be that this decision was taken at the highest political levels, and I applaud this decision. I read that the govt. set up a small committee of bureaucrats which recommended a waiver and I was hoping for this outcome. This would hopefully incentivise Apple to move at-least some of their assembly to Foxconn India. We need all the jobs and economic activity we can get.

Re: Apple Not Able to Open Stores in India Without Selling 30% Locally Sourced Goods

#62
For anyone not reading the article, note this is about Apple stores and not Apple products. As the article says, Apple products are currently and will continue to be sold through third party distributors (eg, the Indian equivalent of Best Buy).

It is a little bit weirder a sort of protectionism than most of us think about, and a little bit harder for me to care about personally.

Re: Apple Not Able to Open Stores in India Without Selling 30% Locally Sourced Goods

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irrelevant to my point?

They might be saying that evidence of job loss to Mexico is further complicated by the fact that the jobs may have been lost to automation anyway. I.e. that's one more reason nobody can definitively say NAFTA was good/bad for American working class employment.

Bingo!

Re: Apple Not Able to Open Stores in India Without Selling 30% Locally Sourced Goods

#64
Seeing a lot of neo-liberal economics dogma here in the comments, and so would like to recommend this excellent book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Asia-Works-Success-Failure/dp/1....

It has an excellent account of how manufacturing (supported by heavy protectionism from the state) was a crucial component of the Asian miracle in nearly all countries. IMO India really needs to go through a round of manufacturing expansion, preferably in the high-tech sectors.

Re: Apple Not Able to Open Stores in India Without Selling 30% Locally Sourced Goods

#65
post #31

Before people get out their pitchforks. These laws in India are a direct result of 200 years of British 'free' trade. Imagine the amount of damage something like NAFTA has done to the american working class - multiply that with 200 years. While america was in its infancy - before it industrialized - it too used protectionism as a way to allow its local industries to grow, how is it bad if India is trying to do the sa…

> While america was in its infancy - before it industrialized - it too used protectionism as a way to allow its local industries to grow, how is it bad if India is trying to do the same thing ? I was under the impression that anti-protectionism was one of the least controversial positions among economics. Obviously it can help the specific local industries that are being protected from competition, but it seems almos…

> I was under the impression that anti-protectionism was one of the least controversial positions among economics.

It is, but I think this says more about the sorry state of economics than it does about whether protectionism is ever a good idea.

Re: Apple Not Able to Open Stores in India Without Selling 30% Locally Sourced Goods

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do Apple's products qualify as "cutting-edge technology"? Or, phrased differently, would Samsung also qualify? HTC? LG? What differentiates "cutting-edge" from "just another widget" in the consumer electronics sector?

> How do Apple's products qualify as "cutting-edge technology"? If Apple does not qualify as "cutting-edge technology" then what does? If a store is selling to consumers, it's inherently going to be not at the very edge of development. If Apple can't be approved for this exemption, this exemption makes no sense.

The rule is for cutting edge technology that is not available locally, which is a key stipulation.

We're talking about device manufacturing, which isn't exactly scarce in APAC. Apple already manufacturers chargers and other items in India.

IKEA applied and lost. LeEco and Xiaomi have also applied, and my guess is they won't get it as well on the same grounds.

Re: Apple Not Able to Open Stores in India Without Selling 30% Locally Sourced Goods

#67
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India has jobs for everyone at every level if you consider "temple beggar" to be a job and wizened old women in their sixties to be appropriate people to be doing road maintenance. $200 dollars per month sounds like an unusually generous salary for unskilled labour there too - engineering degree or no engineering degree. Of course, it also has plenty of opportunities for a growing middle class that didn't exist for t…

Yeah, I'm not so sure. On the one hand, there's stuff like this - https://twitter.com/pankaj/status/729417379730448384 Here you have SF entrepreneurs with vastly more capital & information than the average person in the US buying one way tickets to India. Just last week, I had coffee with a YC founder who mentioned casually that "YC16 has dozens of startups out of Bangalore". He had conducted mock interviews for the…

There are basically two Indias: India has an educated middle class of significant size and a much larger (and much poorer) lower class. They exist side by side, so you get some contradictions if you try to treat India as one homogeneous population.

Re: Apple Not Able to Open Stores in India Without Selling 30% Locally Sourced Goods

#68
post #31

Before people get out their pitchforks. These laws in India are a direct result of 200 years of British 'free' trade. Imagine the amount of damage something like NAFTA has done to the american working class - multiply that with 200 years. While america was in its infancy - before it industrialized - it too used protectionism as a way to allow its local industries to grow, how is it bad if India is trying to do the sa…

> While america was in its infancy - before it industrialized - it too used protectionism as a way to allow its local industries to grow, how is it bad if India is trying to do the same thing ? I was under the impression that anti-protectionism was one of the least controversial positions among economics. Obviously it can help the specific local industries that are being protected from competition, but it seems almos…

Most important piece of the following post? http://www.zompist.com/jacobs.html

I'm not an economist, but I've gotten the impression from reading lots of articles like this, that it is net negative overall, as in, world wide. But I have never, ever seen a source claim that it is net negative on a national or local level outside of very, very narrowly defined parameters. I have, however, read academic papers that state the opposite.

Let's use NAFTA as an example as the canonical example. A corporation that makes tires moves to Mexico. As a result, tires for everyone in America are now half price, people who had no jobs in Mexico before now have jobs, which helps build out Mexican infrastructure, 20k people across the US no no longer have jobs; but the US economy is healthy, so those people will hopefully be okay and the US economy will likely not even notice such a slight change in labor demand.

Net result: 320 million people have cheaper tires in the US, Mexicans get better jobs, infrastructure and technology, 20k us lose jobs, the corporation saves money, and hopefully reinvests in something to stay competitive.

Using the above scenario, it is easy to see why any legislation against this behavior is seen as damaging and a net loss.

Lets further assume, that the US passes legislation that trailer hitch manufacturers have to pay an import tarriff from Mexico. Using the above scenario, an economist would say not only are you damaging what should be a net positive economic change, and artifically manipulating prices, but chances are Mexico will pass a law adding a tarrif to rubber imports, which will hurt your tire corporation in retaliation. And now the whole thing starts falling apart, with economic losses.

The counter arguments start with the following:

1) The above scenario assumes that those 20k people can find new jobs. If they can't, the math now becomes something along the lines of: 20000 people * 30000 $/year income >?2) Before NAFTA, let's say there were 6 tire making companies in the US, one in detroit, one in newark, etc. Then one of them moves to Mexico City, and helps build up the local technical knowledge and infrastructure needs to support that industry. When the next 5 companies choose to move to Mexico, they will have the choice between also moving to Mexico city, or spending the money to do that same work elsewhere. So you may very well end up with 6 companies operating out of mexico city. While these firms will now be competing against each other, what you've also done, now is replace all of the economies that used to support those industries across the US, with one centralized economy around Mexico City. That's going to be a massive decrease in competition, job growth, etc, overall. Read this for more information: http://www.zompist.com/jacobs.html

Re: Apple Not Able to Open Stores in India Without Selling 30% Locally Sourced Goods

#69

Before people get out their pitchforks. These laws in India are a direct result of 200 years of British 'free' trade. Imagine the amount of damage something like NAFTA has done to the american working class - multiply that with 200 years. While america was in its infancy - before it industrialized - it too used protectionism as a way to allow its local industries to grow, how is it bad if India is trying to do the sa…

I'll add that America is the most protectionist country according to Credit Suisse: http://www.businessinsider.in/The-country-that-imposes-the-m... (Couldn't find link to original report) Worked out well for America. Protectionist laws are a legitimate tool for social and economic progress.

> Protectionist laws are a legitimate tool for social and economic progress.

Just not technological progress.

The auto manufacturers in the U.S. are a prime example of how protectionism stagnated industry development.

Re: Apple Not Able to Open Stores in India Without Selling 30% Locally Sourced Goods

#70
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India has jobs for everyone at every level if you consider "temple beggar" to be a job and wizened old women in their sixties to be appropriate people to be doing road maintenance. $200 dollars per month sounds like an unusually generous salary for unskilled labour there too - engineering degree or no engineering degree. Of course, it also has plenty of opportunities for a growing middle class that didn't exist for t…

Yeah, I'm not so sure. On the one hand, there's stuff like this - https://twitter.com/pankaj/status/729417379730448384 Here you have SF entrepreneurs with vastly more capital & information than the average person in the US buying one way tickets to India. Just last week, I had coffee with a YC founder who mentioned casually that "YC16 has dozens of startups out of Bangalore". He had conducted mock interviews for the…

Why is it hard to believe that a country where a certain class of people has gone up in wealth and opportunity, other people are still stuck? What notahacker says its correct. There's more to India than just living in the urban centers of Delhi, Bangalore, Mumbai, etc.

Sure if you have an American middle class salary/savings and go to India you'll live a very luxurious life (by Indian standards). You'll have AC in your house, servants to come and clean and cook for you. You can hire a driver for road trips. However your surrounding environment will be worse off than compared to the US (pollution, smog, corruption, inadequate infrastructure)

The servants however are still living in poverty or close to poverty. Go outside a major city to the countryside and its still very underdeveloped.

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