Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Unnecessariat

morecrows.wordpress.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 256 posts

Re: Unnecessariat

#101

Post by mousa »

snerbles wrote: post #28
DenisM wrote: post #23

I often say to my fellow engineers that software engineering is a profession of destroying jobs. There doesn't seem to be any follow up discussion though, everyone just nods and moves on to the next subject. What can we do? There is no stopping the train of automation.

It seems that us as engineers either partake in pushing these souls into oblivion or join them. I see no way out unless we invent an economic use for those who will be useless.

No economic use is not oblivion. Being useless needs to somehow be destigmatized while not being encouraged. It's not the end of the world, there are happy monks who live in seclusion off the generosity of others, there are some happy people with special needs who we don't try to make work and retired people who still enjoy life. There's no reason we can't have people being happy doing hobbies some day if we can get past training ourselves to feel like shit when we're not doing useless but socially necessary work (which is what most jobs are rapidly turning into). Some country is going to implement basic income and force us to talk about these ideas that successful people feel we can keep pushing away because it doesn't affect us yet.

Re: Unnecessariat

#102

Post by whichfawkes »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #33
snerbles wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that us as engineers either partake in pushing these souls into oblivion or join them. I see no way out unless we invent an economic use for those who will be useless.

I bring learning from a distant shore! Over in India we've found an economic use for all those who will be useless! https://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2016/robots_didnt_take_ou...

Well this is a great way to go from "some poor people have jobs and can barely afford rent" to "Why is everybody homeless now?".

Re: Unnecessariat

#103

Post by dibujante »

pjlegato wrote: post #86
CodeMage wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there's no followup discussion. The fact that software engineering is "destroying jobs" is the wrong problem to focus on, but any discussion that approaches the right problem -- capitalism -- is practically taboo in United States.

Bernie Sanders seems to be quite popular as an openly socialist presidential candidate, so it cannot be said that it is practically taboo to discuss the supposed shortcomings of capitalism in the US.

He's not really a socialist, though. He's a social democrat, which is a much less extreme and more reasonable political position. It just seems extreme in the US because Americans tend to catastrophise their political orientations. "You think that the speed limit should be 65? I can't stand to breathe the same air as someone who thinks that 60 isn't the right speed limit."

Re: Unnecessariat

#104

Post by mac01021 »

rashkov wrote: post #80
mac01021 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You just get to try and elect people who will HOPEFULLY do what's in your best interests. You get to do a bit more than that, though few ever do. Making full use of representative democracy means continuously contacting your representative, not leaving them alone until you're convinced they'll act in your interests, and not leaving your friends/family/community alone until you've got as many other people as you can…

Which is why the 40 hour work week and dog-eat-dog economy seem to really suit those representatives just fine. No one has time or energy to make full use of representative democracy, unfortunately, except for some of the well off with resources to spare.

You're working a lot more than 40 hours per week if you don't have an hour a day to spend on advocacy.

Re: Unnecessariat

#105

Post by wildmusings »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #59
wildmusings wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Indeed. The world needs to return to feudalism, with elites -- who are more or less permanent and hereditary even in capitalism -- having, and believing and accepting that they do have, clearly-defined obligations towards the common people and towards the collective defense of the realm. This post is a good reminder that capitalists are the radical liberal utopians of an earlier age, and what the realistic alternat…

Then again, the prevailing opinion of the 19th century was that "inalienable rights" are so last century and the only true rights that exist are those that can be won from a free market.

I don't see a conflict there, between inalienable rights and free market. It seems to me like the right to sell your labor and property is an inalienable right. What exactly do you mean?

Re: Unnecessariat

#106

Post by a13n »

DenisM wrote: post #23

I often say to my fellow engineers that software engineering is a profession of destroying jobs. There doesn't seem to be any follow up discussion though, everyone just nods and moves on to the next subject. What can we do? There is no stopping the train of automation.

I would guess the discussion ends there because your fellow software engineers (myself included) don't see automation as a bad thing. Algorithms become smarter, processes more efficient, production cheaper and faster, etc. How is this worse? It's not.

Soon truck driving will be automated. This will eliminate millions of jobs. We need to figure out a system that supports people regardless of employment. We need to figure it out by yesterday.

I'm a firm believer that basic income is that system and that automation should fund it.

Re: Unnecessariat

#107

Post by [deleted] »

Animats wrote: post #15

From the article: "We aren’t precarious, we’re unnecessary. The money has gone to the top. The wages have gone to the top. The recovery has gone to the top. And what’s worst of all, everybody who matters seems basically pretty okay with that. " That's it right there. We just don't need that many people to do all the stuff. Some of that is imports, but not all, or even most, of it. Get behind the $15 minimum wage. The…

[deleted]

Re: Unnecessariat

#108

Post by pjlegato »

dibujante wrote: post #103
pjlegato wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bernie Sanders seems to be quite popular as an openly socialist presidential candidate, so it cannot be said that it is practically taboo to discuss the supposed shortcomings of capitalism in the US.

He's not really a socialist, though. He's a social democrat, which is a much less extreme and more reasonable political position. It just seems extreme in the US because Americans tend to catastrophise their political orientations. "You think that the speed limit should be 65? I can't stand to breathe the same air as someone who thinks that 60 isn't the right speed limit."

Sanders has described himself as a "socialist" on numerous occasions. In any case, bickering over the validity of different schemes of leftist political ontology was not the point.

The point is that OP's belief that criticizing capitalism is somehow taboo in the US is factually wrong.

Sanders indisputably roundly and frequently criticizes capitalism to anyone who will listen, and he's quite popular as a presidential candidate for exactly that reason.

A lot of leftists, particularly non-American leftists, seem to imagine the US is some sort of Ayn Randian fantasyland where everyone is rabidly pro-capitalist and any views to the contrary are self-censored as a taboo. Sanders' candidacy (among many other data points) amply falsifies this misconception.

Re: Unnecessariat

#109

Post by api »

emblem21 wrote: post #73
jbooth wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump's got the same thing with the specific brand of disempowered people that the article's talking about.

I have found people are frequently ready to kill one another to protect THEI specific brands of the disempowered of choice, often at the expense of the disempowered brand they despize.

The culture war is a great tool for dividing the disempowered and keeping economic issues off the table.

Re: Unnecessariat

#110

Post by yummyfajitas »

whichfawkes wrote: post #102
yummyfajitas wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bring learning from a distant shore! Over in India we've found an economic use for all those who will be useless! https://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2016/robots_didnt_take_ou...

Well this is a great way to go from "some poor people have jobs and can barely afford rent" to "Why is everybody homeless now?".

Step 1: Poor person produces something useful, rather than simply consuming.

Step 2: ???

Step 3: Everyone is homeless?

Could you fill in step 2 for me? I'm not following your logic.

Post reply on HN