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China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

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Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#241
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appreciated for your comments. Though statistically that is not very convincing: the ingredients of capitalism, i.e., market economy and democracy would lead to prosperity. We have more than two hundreds of countries on this globe, the most advanced ones are still the powers from the colonization era. In my humble opinion, those factors seem to be more of correlation than causation.

> In my humble opinion, those factors seem to be more of correlation than causation. Considering that the most advanced economy in the world did not even exist at the onset of the colonization era (and did not catapult to its status until the past century), I think you're over-reaching! >Though statistically that is not very convincing: the ingredients of capitalism, i.e., market economy and democracy would lead to p…

> I did not say 'democracy' -- this is an economic discussion of how capitalism, and not communism, creates prosperity.

You're right on this one. I shouldn't have put words into your mouth by mentioning it.

> Can you name a single modern large scale society at all that experiences prosperity without market economy?

I think you does have a point. Though I would agree with a bit conservation. If we are talking about market economy itself, I consider it a necessary but not sufficient condition for economical prosperity.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#242

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

I've got family in China. They're just regular people trying to make in the world, same as me and most everyone else reading this. I'm no fan of the government there, but that's no reason to not work with the people who have little choice but to live under it.

True.

I had this totally naïve idea that EU could introduce higher tariffs and trade restrictions using a score based on political freedom, social security, etc, and the goal would be to tax but not remove too much of the cost incentive for trading.

Part (or most, or even all) of the money should then be used to fund education and healthcare back in the country the money came from, while avoiding too much political campaigning.

Maybe it's totally unrealistic, but I can't really see any other way of protecting the rights that we have fought for.

Interestingly, this would be virtually impossible in Russia as they more or less have legislated against "foreign agents" to minimise the opportunity for the west to meddle with their affairs.

It could work in China, and most likely in India and countries with large groups of poor people.

It would also be virtually unacceptable for USA, unless the social component was removed. As it is now, EU would have to increase the tariffs to compensate for the poor social security in US...

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#243
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The far more aggravating thing is that we tolerate China, choose to do business with Chinese companies and buy Chinese products. A trade embargo (aka cold war) would be a lot worse for everyone involved.. Leads to arms race and threats of war, even less freedom and more injustice for the people (eg North Korea). > we are trading our values, for which people freaking died to win, for short term convenience .. Yeah,…

“Older men declare war. But it is youth that must fight and die.”

You can shoot at (some poor schmuck drafted by the other side)/the enemy or you can shoot at your draft board, your choice.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#245
To everyone who hold the 'western value': do you know that one of the biggest jokes of your 'western value' is that you think it applies everywhere in the world in the same form, and you take it as a disguise and do harmful things to the people of other countries(of course, this is all done by the hands of politicians). You don't understand that there can be different values. So when you look at things from this perspective, you always think that the Chinese government is evil.

You put 'human rights' all day long beside your mouth, haha, but never really investigate if human rights in China really worse than western countries. US government criticizes the Chinese government for this all day long but never say nothing about their arabic friends. And Snowden is from US, right?

You have never had experience to truely live in a country of 1.4 billion people, let alone governing one. You don't understand how to unite people with such great quantity and diversity. You don't understand what chaos will come if everyone can purse his political dreams.

Western value emphasizes on the value of individuals, while in china we balance between individual and the whole nation. Interestingly, I want to use the word '集体(jiti)' in Chinese, but I can't find a suitable word in English, so I used nation. Maybe you never thought of that.

As to why CCP is blocking the internet? Because, the blocked sites contains values that is not really about freedom or human rights, instead that is like virus, that will do harm to our values and the interest our the Chinese people. For now, as a newborn ancient nation, our value is not strong enough yet. Your values will not bring Chinese people human rights and prosperity. No revolution can be done without being based on history, we have our tradition and our value. When it's powerful enough, enough that Chinese people won't be harmed by western politicians, that you are all convinced the world can have different values and still a harmony world. our value will be more open to the world.

To those who won't like to trade their values for Chinese goods, my advice: Don't Buy ANY Chinese Goods. We can see whose life will become tougher.

P.S.: As a Chinese, I have every means to access the 'free' internet(as anyone who really want in China) and know what's all about in it, know all the bad words about China and CCP and know most of them are not real. So I think censorship for now is a great idea for we Chinese to focus on forging a beautiful life for ourselves. for our people.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#246
I have wondered if there is a VPN in China so that you can see what China actually sees (the opposite is easy to find).

I would imagine such a service not to be very public. I suppose you could buy hosting service in China and do it yourself... or is that not even possible?

EDIT.. apparently there are now lots services that do this (I had looked a few years back).

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#247
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's seletz's point. It's easy for people to embrace the rhetoric that China is a bound society and the West is made of free societies. In reality, the shape of the bindings is different. A free society wouldn't have forced a man to flee because he knew he wouldn't find justice after revealing an uncomfortable political truth to the public that is oppressed by it. America's methods are different, but being a superp…

Oh, if that was seletz's point, then I agree with it. I thought he was claiming in the US it was possible to be a dissident without censorship or repression. My mistake!

Well -- I think it's a bit more subtle than that. And maybe a bit more scary. While one would believe that there can be "dissidents" in the US w/o repression based on what one reads on the net -- e.g. the the "US" representing the "free world" yadda yadda ... -- the repressions and censorships are more subtle in general.

Also, one must not confuse the US with "the western world". I live in Germany, and I believe that you could be a dissident here w/o censorship. I also believe this is true for most other European countries.

My original point was that the statement: > And what would happen if you managed to actually start something that had a real chance at getting people in front of a judge and behind bars, that we can just guess at, since nobody has done it before.

Is simply not true. Mentioned Mr. Snowden as an example -- but there are more, like the huge leak of the panama papers.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#248

To everyone who hold the 'western value': do you know that one of the biggest jokes of your 'western value' is that you think it applies everywhere in the world in the same form, and you take it as a disguise and do harmful things to the people of other countries(of course, this is all done by the hands of politicians). You don't understand that there can be different values. So when you look at things from this pers…

> As to why CCP is blocking the internet? Because, the blocked sites contains values that is not really about freedom or human rights, instead that is like virus, that will do harm to our values and the interest our the Chinese people.

Who defines what is in the best interest for the Chinese people?

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#249
post #222

What a good comparison to Berlin Wall that is. Never thought about it. Whenever I went to China the VPN-fight-with-GFW has always been a nightmare, and my Android phone could not get updated either as google is 100% blocked there. On the other hand, in USA the is near 100% freedom including the internet, but that does have some side effects itself, e.g. nowadays any gender can get into any restroom depends on what he…

Please educate yourself about what being transgender actually means.

To give you a rough idea: If you think that people should use the bathroom that matches their birth certificate, you should expect to meet these people in your bathroom (and yes, I am assuming that you are male):

http://www.gardenstateequality.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/0...

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/695/cpsprodpb/10BA6/production/...

https://d1j2diro5xke84.cloudfront.net/photo-articles/feature...

http://womenofrubies.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Geraldin...

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